Too old for an apprenticeship

[soosh]

Hi geeks, I am really upset about this matter and hopefully you might have a piece of advice for me..

I am 23y and I've finished Level 1 in Hairdressing. Everything well, I loved it to bits, got the Student of the Year award. (this while doing another course, volunteering and having a job). I am really determined to become a successful hairdresser and I moved to the UK only for this reason...I've got a degree back home in another subject, but I left everything and everybody just to do this,kept saying in mind that Sassoon was poor in his early life, and look at him now!
I have realised that taking only your nvqs is not enough and you need some salon experience, so I said...I could be an apprentice, bearing the poor wedge and long hours and the routine tasks.
I've made a perfect CV, happy that I have some good working experience and good achievements in my life so far, and applied in ALL the salons in my city and in the city nearby. But after speaking with many people and a few salon managers I've found out that I am...too old. Because they'll have to pay me, in the 2nd year with the NMW. And, because of this, they didn't even offer me the chance of an interview.
I am very sad and dissapointed...I could have done anything to work in a salon and do my best, as I have a very good work ethic and I am brilliant at customer services, but most of all I am passionate and determined. I really don't care about the money, I could eat tinned soup for one year and never buy any clothes and things ( call that a sacrifice!).
I really don't know what to do now, I mean, ok, I'll go to college, but it's not the same... it's really boring and not challenging and I am stuck with young people without any ideas about their future or any motivation of any kind. And what am I going to do after I take all my qualifications, if I got no working experience in this domain?
I feel that it's so unfair....I can change things, improve them, widen my skills, become better...but I can't change my age!
What do you think about all this apprenticeship situation? (sorry for the long post).

 

[persianista]

It is the way it is. We have to work within the law, which was poorly thought out. It alsoexists to protect people from exploitation.

Sadly the days of the big, rich salons who could afford to pay full adult minimum wage for someone to sweep the floor are over for the time being. All staff have to pay their way in a salon, otherwise the salon goes pop.

Our system is that the apprentiships go to the school leavers who have not had the benefit of a university degree. They actually need it more than you.

Sorry, but to wait till age 23 to start your true vocation in life then whine because the system isn't set up for you, well, your a bit late really to be a junior.

It takes a salon approx 4-5 years to start making a profit from a trainee, thats a lot of money to invest before we see a return for a 16 year old, let alone an adult.

 

[soosh]

Thank you for your reply, Persianista.
I agree with you about the money that need to be invested before they start to pay back. However, I believe that an adult will have quicker results than a teenager.
What I don't understand, if you think I'm actually too old to be a junior, why do they say in the apprenticeship scheme that it's for all ages and there's no age limit? Even in job descriptions they do that. So, full am I to believe this bull****, right?
I've actually started hairdressing at 22, but of course it took me one year to finish L1. And it's not my dream job of sweeping the floors as a junior, but I don't believe I can't become overnight a 'senior'. But what about those who've started later? That's absolutely ridiculous. And I came here alone, and managing myself alone. Don't think I could have done this at an earlier age.
And you talk about lots of money being invested...well I have to invest lots of money myself. I 'paid' the price of having a degree, by paying the full course price at college, paying for everything else, not having any travel discounts or anything. And now I'll have to pay for the apprenticeship, as well, for not being funded by the government. And why do you think the school leavers need it more than me? Because they're not capable of doing anything else?
To be honest, I am just shocked and dissapointed. Now I truly understand those who are 50 and struggle to find a job.

 

[persianista]

The fact that you have invested lots of money in your own education is not a salon's problem. Salons exist to make a profit. No other reason. Salons owe you nothing.

People entering the industry late generally do full time college, and they pay for it themselves.

Older trainees do not learn quicker than youngsters. It is about the same. Young apprentices are usually easier to train, less whiney, and have less preconceptions about hairdressing.

They are more entitled to their free NVQ than you, as they have not got a state subsidised education which includes A levels and a degree. (Before you start whining about your tuition fees, it is heavily subsidised by the taxpayer). These 16/17 year olds have never had that. It is quite right that their trade qualifications are subsidised too.

 

[soosh]

Just as a matter of fact, no taxpayer paid my education, since I've done it in another country, at a private university. So I paid for it myself. And yea, salons owe me nothing, but I didn't ask for anything for free either. And I'm not whining about the fees I had to pay, but I was just trying to say that I had to invest in it as well. Why do you put the problem about how much the salons have to invest in your training, when you omit the fact that you are giving something in return for them, some at the time being and some will pay in future?They won't pay you just for sitting on a chair and watching things happening, but for 40hours of work.
However, you say younger trainees are more perceptive and with less preconceived ideas, but in the same times are the ones who will keep an eye on the clock, thinking about the next ***, come with a hangover and don't show much interest or responsibility for their own actions. And I'm not saying all of them, as I am sure you're not saying all the adult trainees are difficult to work with.
My problem is not to go into an argument with you, but to state the fact that the doors for an apprenticeships are closed, bassed on age matters. Which contradicts 'the law' you've mentioned earlier, which states that there's no age limit for an apprenticeship.

 

[topcuts]

regardless of previous education, country of training etc.

it is what it is as persianista stated. i have an apprentice who is 16 and a graduate stylist who just qualified who is 41. you are never too old to do an apprenticeship. in fact i left hairdressing for a number of years then, couldnt get my certificates from my estranged parents for the visa to emigrate so took myself back to college and re-qualified and loved it as lots had changed and i was fast-tracked too which was a bonus.

i was not the oldest on the course and i am approached every week by older just qualified stylists that are qualified on paper but not practically but i cannot afford to pay the adult min wage for more than 1 trainee and it takes a special dedicated person to swallow their pride and start at the bottom like mine has. she is currently stood here practising on her manikin in between offering grad cuts. i have told her when she earns her salary each day consistently for 6 months her wages will go up.

what people must not forget though is that without her shampooing / blow drying / sweeping / telephones etc i would not make as much money as i would not be free to service my clients.

keep trying lose the negativity and knock on doors and someone, like me, will give you a chance but by God dont blow it as it is an incestuous industry and once you have upset one salon you will lost touch with them all.

good luck!

 

[soosh]

Thank you for your thought Topcuts, very kind of you. I managed to get myself a 3 days trial in a salon, so I guess it's that chance you're talking about....

 

[pippy]

good for you Soosh, and i hope you do well in life. But going back to persianista said, as I understood it the gov.
pays for the wages of those aprentices that salons employ so they are not actually loosing any money.
older newly qualified stylists are not whinners because they are the ones who have more to loose from not learning fast.
so please don't go generalising people into groups because it ofends.
and as topcuts says "it takes a special dedicated person to swallow their pride and start at the bottom", maybe you were lucky enough to start young and at a time when vacancies and opportunities where 10 a penny because qualifications where not a number one priority, but people like me have had to struggle through years of cultural barriers and female opression to get to where i want to be today. and what happened to equal rights? if the gov. wants to increase the retirement age then to balance it out they would equally have to increase the training age for new skills.

 

[annie:)]

Older trainees do not learn quicker than youngsters. It is about the same. Young apprentices are usually easier to train, less whiney, and have less preconceptions about hairdressing.

.

I totally disagree with this,when i was 17 i got an apprentership but it took me ages because salons kept saying theyd have to pay me NMW in my second year as i would be 18 so really i was too 'old',however the salon owner that did take me on was so right in what she said,she wished she could have older apprenticers as there more mature and havent just left the playground and decided to be a hairdresser,a 22 year old has more life experience and more time to decide what they really want to do so therfore put all there effort in to it!x

Sent from my X10i

 

[annie:)]

Hi geeks, I am really upset about this matter and hopefully you might have a piece of advice for me..

I am 23y and I've finished Level 1 in Hairdressing. Everything well, I loved it to bits, got the Student of the Year award. (this while doing another course, volunteering and having a job). I am really determined to become a successful hairdresser and I moved to the UK only for this reason...I've got a degree back home in another subject, but I left everything and everybody just to do this,kept saying in mind that Sassoon was poor in his early life, and look at him now!
I have realised that taking only your nvqs is not enough and you need some salon experience, so I said...I could be an apprentice, bearing the poor wedge and long hours and the routine tasks.
I've made a perfect CV, happy that I have some good working experience and good achievements in my life so far, and applied in ALL the salons in my city and in the city nearby. But after speaking with many people and a few salon managers I've found out that I am...too old. Because they'll have to pay me, in the 2nd year with the NMW. And, because of this, they didn't even offer me the chance of an interview.
I am very sad and dissapointed...I could have done anything to work in a salon and do my best, as I have a very good work ethic and I am brilliant at customer services, but most of all I am passionate and determined. I really don't care about the money, I could eat tinned soup for one year and never buy any clothes and things ( call that a sacrifice!).
I really don't know what to do now, I mean, ok, I'll go to college, but it's not the same... it's really boring and not challenging and I am stuck with young people without any ideas about their future or any motivation of any kind. And what am I going to do after I take all my qualifications, if I got no working experience in this domain?
I feel that it's so unfair....I can change things, improve them, widen my skills, become better...but I can't change my age!
What do you think about all this apprenticeship situation? (sorry for the long post).

I totally know where your coming from and i know plenty salon owners that would sympathise with you but simply wouldnt be able to take you on due to the high wage,but i think there should be a set wage for all apprenterships n if a 21year old chooses to work for that then thats up to them. Good luck with hairdressing i hope you do well xx
Sent from my X10i

 

[Lovebeauty14]

It's a sad state of the world when 23 is considered too old.

 

[Penners]

Soosh, you say that you moved to the UK specifically to train as a hairdresser - what country did you come from, do they not have any hairdressing training schemes there?
I agree that it may seem unfair but the Government makes the rules and as much as it is a shame if you want to retrain here, thats the way it is. I wish i'd done A levels and gone on to university BUT I chose to train as a hairdresser and if I want to train in something else now it'll cost me a fortune and as I didn't marry for money I have no choice!
I guess you are left with trying to pay for further education and volunteering in a salon to get that vital experience.
I agree that some 16 year olds may not be commited to the industry but this country allows 'young people' the right to education or training until they are 18 I believe and I for one am grateful for that, I don't tell my 12 year old son that he should be grateful that hes getting to learn french or Art etc. and mess about at school all day, its his right, and part of growing up, if he goes on to university - then we'll be paying the big bucks!!( even though its subsidised)

 

[persianista]

I totally disagree with this,when i was 17 i got an apprentership but it took me ages because salons kept saying theyd have to pay me NMW in my second year as i would be 18 so really i was too 'old',however the salon owner that did take me on was so right in what she said,she wished she could have older apprenticers as there more mature and havent just left the playground and decided to be a hairdresser,a 22 year old has more life experience and more time to decide what they really want to do so therfore put all there effort in to it!x

Sent from my X10i

I employ lots of people in hairdressing. Have been in hair salons for 26 years and really do speak from experience.

The left wing, almost communist attitudes on this site at times really blow me away!!

FREE EVERYTHING FOR EVERYONE!! YAY!!

Can I go and get a free degree, and have all my living expenses paid please? Tis my hoomin right!

 

[Miss Hair]

It seems that if your past 19 in the hairdressing world, your a pensioner and no good to anyone! The beauty side seems to be more forgiving if you are abit older and trying to become a therapist! I read a post yesterday about what an employer looks for in a therapist and part of one reply was 'no kids' I was shocked by that as most woman do have children and it seems so wrong that we are judged and deemed less employable because we have children, and that reply was from a woman! I wish you luck with your trial and your career and hope you make it as a hairdresser, and someone can see past your age and see the potential that you have to become a hairdresser x

 

[persianista]

It seems that if your past 19 in the hairdressing world, your a pensioner and no good to anyone! The beauty side seems to be more forgiving if you are abit older and trying to become a therapist! I read a post yesterday about what an employer looks for in a therapist and part of one reply was 'no kids' I was shocked by that as most woman do have children and it seems so wrong that we are judged and deemed less employable because we have children, and that reply was from a woman! I wish you luck with your trial and your career and hope you make it as a hairdresser, and someone can see past your age and see the potential that you have to become a hairdresser x

Employers avoid women with kids because they have 3 months parental leave entitlement. Although this is unpaid, it is detrimental to anyone trying to build a clientele to be off a lot.
Rights to flexible working are tricky to reconcile when you are running a service business and need people to work evenings/weekends/school holidays.

Most employers struggle to accommodate working mothers, not particularly salons.

One of my stylists found out her childcarer let her down on school pick up and left a client HALFWAY through a haircut. I had the client burst into tears. The stylist felt her child had to come first. What do you do in that situation apart from try and avoid it in the first place?

 

[Miss Hair]

I can see it from both sides, an employer would find it very difficult to take on an older trainee as they would have to pay them minimum wage and if they worked in the salon for 40 hours a week, that's over £200 and that trainee just wouldn't make the salon her wages back, so that's probably why a 16 year old would get chosen and paid £95 a week! I'm sure if older people cud also take part in the £95 a week apprenticeships then salons would employ more of the older people! There doesn't seem to be much of an answer to this problem! This is the reason I have changed my course to Beauty therapy because I don't want to train for 2 years in hairdressing and have nobody give me a chance at the end of it, with beauty therapy the usual route is training through full time college but hairdressing needs to be through an apprenticeship which I just cannot do because of my age (29)! X

 

[Lovebeauty14]

I can see both points of view here. I can see the employers point if view and it makes sense, to them it makes no sense to pay out for an older person, and having kids raises more problems, but as a 25 year old mother of one (luckily starting out in the beauty business) if does seem unfair that we are discriminated against because of our age and child factor. It seems to make us unemployable. It this day and age of equality it seems age and choosing to have children is as much as a problem with employing a person as it was in the 1960's. Just a thought, is it not possible, if the candidate offers, to employ a over 19 year old without a wage purely on work experience? I'm sure some would do this if they can afford it, or maybe to employ them part time on a wage, just a couple of days a week? I think some would even do one day a week? It just seems hugely unfair as lots of people at 16 have NO IDEA what they want to do with their lives and only after some life experience does their true calling become apparent.

 

[persianista]

internships are going to be subject to minimum wage rules soon. Too many companies and public bodies were using them as unpaid labour, and only the children of rich people could work for no money.
Unfortunately you want equality, you got it.

Sometimes there are unintended consequences. Mothers fought for extra rights in the workplcae. You got them. Don't blame employers of tiny companies if they don't wanna play.
You got flexible working, parental leave,family friendly policies etc. The fact that all this may prevent mothers from getting a job in the first place was never considered.

No laws can please everyone.

When these laws are called upon, it does cause huge tensions in a small workplace. All of us have stuff going on.

|I had a situation where a stylist had a very elderly Mother living with her. When another stylist banged on about her rights to parental leave, easier hours etc, the first styist was in tears. Looking after an elderly sick relative is pretty stressfull whilst holding down a much needed job, let alone having someone rub your nose in it, and expect you to cover their hours at the drop of a hat.

 

[persianista]

I can see both points of view here. I can see the employers point if view and it makes sense, to them it makes no sense to pay out for an older person, and having kids raises more problems, but as a 25 year old mother of one (luckily starting out in the beauty business) if does seem unfair that we are discriminated against because of our age and child factor. It seems to make us unemployable. It this day and age of equality it seems age and choosing to have children is as much as a problem with employing a person as it was in the 1960's. Just a thought, is it not possible, if the candidate offers, to employ a over 19 year old without a wage purely on work experience? I'm sure some would do this if they can afford it, or maybe to employ them part time on a wage, just a couple of days a week? I think some would even do one day a week? It just seems hugely unfair as lots of people at 16 have NO IDEA what they want to do with their lives and only after some life experience does their true calling become apparent.

In your situation I have offered one day a week. A Saturday. It was declined as the person thought she could be a hairdresser and not work Saturdays. (It was a paid position). I don't bother now. We are busy evenings and weekends. I need people who can work their 40 hours a week when needed, not when they feel it fits in.

 

[Diana-Jane]

This whole post is worrying me! I'm 41 and halfway through my beauty therapy nvq course. I did admin jobs I didn't like for ever, was preoccupied with being a mum and to be honest, before I knew it time had passed and I found myself approaching 40 doing a job I hated. So I took the plunge and am paying my own way for this course. I absolutely love it and really have found my true vocation. I do lots of home based and mobile treatments to keep my skills up and earn a few pounds.
After reading this lost though I'm worried that no employers will touch me which would be a shame as I am very dedicated and would put everything I have into a job.
The college tutors told me my age wouldn't be a problem but are they completely out of touch with what employers are really looking for? I know this is a hair post but i'd appreciate any honest opinions. Worried! :-/

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