Sasha Malone
Well-Known Member
What about Kosher, Halal and Rastafarian business? What's the grounds on this?
Business refusing service based on gender..
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I don't think any of that is relevant to salons lol or even relevant to this thread.
Kyralouise
Well-Known Member
Equality Act 2010 - Explanatory Notes
"734.Single *** services are permitted where:
"734.Single *** services are permitted where:
- they may be used by more than one person and a woman might object to the presence of a man (or vice versa); or
- they may involve physical contact between a user and someone else and that other person may reasonably object if the user is of the opposite ***."
Beauty in Bloom
Beauty in Bloom
This discussion could go on and on 
!. Apologies in advance if my comments come over the wrong way. So I’m going to open a can of worms here!.. but life isn’t cut and dry, surely everyone has the right to choose how they run their business as long as it’s in a professional manner?..Unfortunately life isn’t fair, discrimination is everywhere (not that I’m condoning it) but if you were to get offended by every thing thats happened in your life, you’d never leave the house!. The bottom line is, that whether you are a salon owner, or a therapist working within a salon or someone on their own, it doesn’t matter. If you choose to provide certain treatments to a certain gender of clients then you should be allowed to without judgement. Some of the situations involving male massage clients that I found myself in, in the past could have turned nasty. For that reason, I don’t accept new male clients for massage as i dont want to be put in that situation again, like someone said earlier, im happy to provide a service to a friends husband, son or brother as i feel safer that way. And I know that not all men are like that I just prefer to now have the choice. As I said before, there are plenty of salons that do offer massage to male clients but if it makes you uncomfortable then why should you have to offer that service?. I also thought I’d mention that I’m a newly self employed salon owner working in the industry for nearly 20 years currently working on my own from a garden room at home.
!. Apologies in advance if my comments come over the wrong way. So I’m going to open a can of worms here!.. but life isn’t cut and dry, surely everyone has the right to choose how they run their business as long as it’s in a professional manner?..Unfortunately life isn’t fair, discrimination is everywhere (not that I’m condoning it) but if you were to get offended by every thing thats happened in your life, you’d never leave the house!. The bottom line is, that whether you are a salon owner, or a therapist working within a salon or someone on their own, it doesn’t matter. If you choose to provide certain treatments to a certain gender of clients then you should be allowed to without judgement. Some of the situations involving male massage clients that I found myself in, in the past could have turned nasty. For that reason, I don’t accept new male clients for massage as i dont want to be put in that situation again, like someone said earlier, im happy to provide a service to a friends husband, son or brother as i feel safer that way. And I know that not all men are like that I just prefer to now have the choice. As I said before, there are plenty of salons that do offer massage to male clients but if it makes you uncomfortable then why should you have to offer that service?. I also thought I’d mention that I’m a newly self employed salon owner working in the industry for nearly 20 years currently working on my own from a garden room at home.Yet again this is about a salon not an individual. Someone in the salon must provide the same service for men to avoid being discriminatory.
That's absolutely crazy and discrimination.This discussion could go on and on
A self employed person working from home or travelling to the homes of customers I agree there is more leway under the law.
However a salon must offer all service to all genders especially where the training isn't gender spicific. Anything else is discrimination. If you work in a salon and you aren't happy working with all genders you're in the wrong role.
Just for context.
I have just received an out of court settlement from a training provider in the UK. This was because they offered a non gender spicific course to only females which was proven to be discrimination.
Kyralouise
Well-Known Member
Where does it say it's not about a salon?
Regardless, what's the difference? It's still a one-to-one service, in a private room. Once that door closes it's about the individual completing the service.
The following examples are regarding a beauty business, which includes beauty salons, not just individuals.
https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/sites/default/files/advertising_-_faq.pdf
"Q. Can a beauty therapist restrict her services to female clients?
A. Yes. There are exceptions within the Act allowing the provision of single-*** services.
Typical situations in which a beauty business could lawfully provide a single-*** service include:
• therapists operate on their own and in clients’ homes (for safety reasons)
• the service involves physical contact, such as massage, and the therapist might reasonably object to providing it for a man (for example, for privacy and decency reasons)
• the service is likely to be used by more than one person at the same time and a woman is likely to object to the presence of a man, or vice versa, and
• restricting the service to women is objectively justified."
Sasha Malone
Well-Known Member
You mentioned Restaurants in a hair and beauty business thread, just mearly responding to your post.
If it isn't relevent then why bring up restaurants? Not sure where you want this thread to go?
A lot has been said on here about equality law, discrimination, and human rights, as well as litigation.
I wonder if it would be worth your while calling in at the salon and introducing yourself, (or phoning ahead and asking for a convenient time) and asking about the service you were interested in and maybe enquiring why they are not keen to offer that service to men? Sometimes when you take it down to a face to face conversation you find the answer you are looking for. There may be a valid reason they are only wanting to treat women, it may be to do with the facilities for example, or you never know, the therapist might have had a terrible experience with a male client, I don't know. Maybe they are new to the industry, just starting up and think that men aren't interested in that market? Reasons are many and varied.
You could explain how sad and disappointed you are that you can't visit their salon.
You might find a middle ground, and they may even end up offering you a treatment.
Maybe you think I'm mad, but I do think talking to people can really help sometimes, and it's certainly worth a try, before you go pursuing them through the Court of European Rights or whatever the equivalent now is.
We’ve had this *** discrimination conversation before on this forum. Chriss87 became very worked telling those of us that are industry qualified in providing services that it was discriminatory to refuse to provide services for which we are not qualified or where we do not feel competent to provide a professional standard.
I treat all genders and both sexes. I occasionally work solo but I always arrange a chaperone to be on the premises for male *** clients until they visited at least 5 times if I am working below the neck. My policy is explained on my salon website where I make it clear that we do not offer services to men if we only have a solo working, female therapist. I have a staff member who refuses to work solo on men even for eyebrows. I have a duty of care to provide her with a safe working environment where she does not feel anxious. We have discussed how to handle this situation and I am professionally qualified in the relevant equality legislation.
I was not trained to provide services to men, my training explained that there are differences in skin and hair growth which affect how services are provided effectively. This means that we would need to undertake case studies on a certain number of male clients and it’s difficult to arrange male models in sufficient numbers. As an experienced therapist, with access to men to practise on, I have been able to bring my skill up to the level where I can offer a professional service to male *** clients. It’s about competency.
I have done lots of brand training and with the exception of massage, I have never trained alongside a male colleague. This means that treatments for male *** clients are discussed in theory, without any insight from a male and that does make a difference. My non therapist males do not give me professional insights when I test protocols on them.
if you want a treatment from a salon that specifically says that they do not offer services to your *** and you particularly want to try something that is not on offer elsewhere, contact them and ask whether they will consider offering that service to you (mention your ***). By all means ask them to justify any refusal. If the reason is that they don’t have sufficient expertise to offer that service well, you could ask if you could model for them.
Pointing at signs and feeling offended is easy. I’m belong to several minority populations that have received society mandated discriminative treatment in the past and in the present. Personally I pick my battles. I have challenged and been successful, you need to be clear on your facts and to understand the viewpoints.
I treat all genders and both sexes. I occasionally work solo but I always arrange a chaperone to be on the premises for male *** clients until they visited at least 5 times if I am working below the neck. My policy is explained on my salon website where I make it clear that we do not offer services to men if we only have a solo working, female therapist. I have a staff member who refuses to work solo on men even for eyebrows. I have a duty of care to provide her with a safe working environment where she does not feel anxious. We have discussed how to handle this situation and I am professionally qualified in the relevant equality legislation.
I was not trained to provide services to men, my training explained that there are differences in skin and hair growth which affect how services are provided effectively. This means that we would need to undertake case studies on a certain number of male clients and it’s difficult to arrange male models in sufficient numbers. As an experienced therapist, with access to men to practise on, I have been able to bring my skill up to the level where I can offer a professional service to male *** clients. It’s about competency.
I have done lots of brand training and with the exception of massage, I have never trained alongside a male colleague. This means that treatments for male *** clients are discussed in theory, without any insight from a male and that does make a difference. My non therapist males do not give me professional insights when I test protocols on them.
if you want a treatment from a salon that specifically says that they do not offer services to your *** and you particularly want to try something that is not on offer elsewhere, contact them and ask whether they will consider offering that service to you (mention your ***). By all means ask them to justify any refusal. If the reason is that they don’t have sufficient expertise to offer that service well, you could ask if you could model for them.
Pointing at signs and feeling offended is easy. I’m belong to several minority populations that have received society mandated discriminative treatment in the past and in the present. Personally I pick my battles. I have challenged and been successful, you need to be clear on your facts and to understand the viewpoints.
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ilovevanity
Member
I honestly feel that the claim it is discrimination is ludicrous. Saying that “all services offered must be provided to anyone of any ***” is ridiculous. What you’re saying is we don’t have the right to bodily autonomy. If I have to touch someone during a service - at all - I have the right to say no.
Let’s say I have PTSD and have a real discomfort and fear around men (I use this example because I have a client who experiences this). Are you saying that I can’t have a career offering a service unless I put myself through trauma to provide pedicures to men? Nonsense. There are female only gyms all over the U.K. and they’re well known. If it were illegal, why hasn’t the government shut them down? It’s not like they’re a single, small business. They’re nationally known and wouldn’t go unnoticed. No one is touching you at the gym and you aren’t wearing a bikini to work out (well most of us anyway haha if you want to, crack on! Haha). It’s just a comfortable space for women only.
The law isn’t as clear cut as some are saying it is. It doesn’t apply if there are reasonable circumstances. These would be considered by a judge if someone took it to court. If you just don’t like men, that isn’t a good reason and you’re breaking the law. If you provide services only for women who are domestic violence victims, the law takes this into account as an exception because there are valid reasons for not offering services to men. If you are Muslim for example, and all your staff are Muslim, you will have to touch men to provide hair cutting services etc. You can reasonably refuse to serve male clients if you have justifiable reasons for doing so.
Let’s say I have PTSD and have a real discomfort and fear around men (I use this example because I have a client who experiences this). Are you saying that I can’t have a career offering a service unless I put myself through trauma to provide pedicures to men? Nonsense. There are female only gyms all over the U.K. and they’re well known. If it were illegal, why hasn’t the government shut them down? It’s not like they’re a single, small business. They’re nationally known and wouldn’t go unnoticed. No one is touching you at the gym and you aren’t wearing a bikini to work out (well most of us anyway haha if you want to, crack on! Haha). It’s just a comfortable space for women only.
The law isn’t as clear cut as some are saying it is. It doesn’t apply if there are reasonable circumstances. These would be considered by a judge if someone took it to court. If you just don’t like men, that isn’t a good reason and you’re breaking the law. If you provide services only for women who are domestic violence victims, the law takes this into account as an exception because there are valid reasons for not offering services to men. If you are Muslim for example, and all your staff are Muslim, you will have to touch men to provide hair cutting services etc. You can reasonably refuse to serve male clients if you have justifiable reasons for doing so.
