CCO Shellac?

[cat2408]

Thanks for all your points of view but I feel you may have misunderstood mine. I said 'uv polish' not shellac. Brands such as CCO only sell CCO gel polish on their wholesale website which by the way has all certificates of licence for use in the Europe and US posted for everyone to see.

I contacted my insurance prior to changing simply because I had seen so much scrutiny about brands such as CCO for dangerous ingredients and counterfeit branding and it was they who informed me of a bias towards certain popular brands which led to the rubbishing and misinformation of newer brands. To summarise they told me as long as the distributor is providing products which come with certificate of use in the UK (which CCO does) they are covered by insurance.

As for the 'knock off handbag' remark I prefer to look at it as buying Kurt Geiger as a pose to Louboutin shoes, both good quality products yet you pay more for the more established brand that has been around for longer. Knock off would be buying your products off places such as Ebay which I do not condone as you cannot be sure of the origin and actually I have seen that products on Ebay are still labelled shellac showing they are either old stock or counterfeit as the current CCO branding is not shellac and packaging is different too , therefore it is clear to my clients that it is not CND. One in particular used to always choose a CND colour until there was a colour she fell in love with that CND did not produce. I told her I'd remove and reapply a CND polish if she didn't think it was as good but there was no need she came back over 2 weeks later no chips and no damage / discolour to nails when removed.

Lastly what I do not agree with is insinuating an individual should not be in business if they cannot afford the top priced brands, not everyone has rich parents / husband or other means to acquiring large amounts of start-up capital and not everyone has the time / means to save for long periods of time before opening their own business. Everyone has to start somewhere and as long as the work you do is of high quality and your products stand the test of time it shouldn't matter what brand you use. There is actually an opportunity to make more as your price per service is less if you are a good nail tech and your products last then why not break free from the CND brand? As I have said myself the quality of 'cheaper' brands is just as good and they provide more colours.

 

[pure]

I'm curious do you know what their name CCO stands for? It stands for 'Carbon Copy Of'. So they freely acknowledge that they began business as a dupe themselves! The only reason they have now changed their business is because they were legally forced to in the courts of law. Personally that's not a company I would like to associate with!

 

[cat2408]

It actually stands of COCOME & CO.

Like I said the old stock was labelled shellac which you see on ebay but the product bought from the legitimate stockists is not labelled as shellac.

 

[NancySyd]

Thanks for all your points of view but I feel you may have misunderstood mine. I said 'uv polish' not shellac. Brands such as CCO only sell CCO gel polish on their wholesale website which by the way has all certificates of licence for use in the Europe and US posted for everyone to see.

I contacted my insurance prior to changing simply because I had seen so much scrutiny about brands such as CCO for dangerous ingredients and counterfeit branding and it was they who informed me of a bias towards certain popular brands which led to the rubbishing and misinformation of newer brands. To summarise they told me as long as the distributor is providing products which come with certificate of use in the UK (which CCO does) they are covered by insurance.

As for the 'knock off handbag' remark I prefer to look at it as buying Kurt Geiger as a pose to Louboutin shoes, both good quality products yet you pay more for the more established brand that has been around for longer. Knock off would be buying your products off places such as Ebay which I do not condone as you cannot be sure of the origin and actually I have seen that products on Ebay are still labelled shellac showing they are either old stock or counterfeit as the current CCO branding is not shellac and packaging is different too , therefore it is clear to my clients that it is not CND. One in particular used to always choose a CND colour until there was a colour she fell in love with that CND did not produce. I told her I'd remove and reapply a CND polish if she didn't think it was as good but there was no need she came back over 2 weeks later no chips and no damage / discolour to nails when removed.

Lastly what I do not agree with is insinuating an individual should not be in business if they cannot afford the top priced brands, not everyone has rich parents / husband or other means to acquiring large amounts of start-up capital and not everyone has the time / means to save for long periods of time before opening their own business. Everyone has to start somewhere and as long as the work you do is of high quality and your products stand the test of time it shouldn't matter what brand you use. There is actually an opportunity to make more as your price per service is less if you are a good nail tech and your products last then why not break free from the CND brand? As I have said myself the quality of 'cheaper' brands is just as good and they provide more colours.

Not to be combative, but you are missing the point. This is not about cheaper brands versus top price brands. It's about counterfeit brands versus legitimate brands (even non-professional ones). They are not only not professional brands, they are counterfeits. Whether you buy them there or not, CCO and BS are sold on eBay and are not sold directly.They are not like Kurt Geiger, which is a brand it its own right and advertises as such. Even after they were forced to remove the word "shellac" from their labels, CCO and BS still copy the graphic identity of the name brands. They do not advertise in professional media, largely because they seek to maintain the confusion. That they are counterfeit is not my opinion, it is a legal fact and the lawsuits are ongoing.

Also, I did not say that you had to buy top priced products. There are lots of less expensive legitimate professional gel polishes like IBD Just Gel, EZ Flow TruGel, Gel II, or INK. They often sell below the price of BS and CCO.

Again, my intent is not to be combative. As I said, you have a right to do what you want with your business. If you feel that the only way you can compete is to use counterfeit products, that is your right. But you should expect that a forum one of whose objectives is to uphold the standards of the industry will look askance at that.

 

[cat2408]

You are missing my point, how can the product be counterfeit if the company has obtained all necessary documentation to sell it in the US and Europe? Yes there have obviously been copyright issues in the past which has led to the changing of names ect. but what I am trying to get across is that this is no longer an issue as they do not use the word shellac in their branding. You can now by direct from the wholesaler not on ebay things have changed and I think it should be made known that there are other options out there,
If insurers cover them and they do not use dangerous products and are legally allowed to sell in Europe and US then they are not counterfeit.

Feel free to do some research on the current copyright situation instead of relying on the myths of the company standing for 'carbon copy of' (which indecently I've only ever seen used on forums like theses) you'll find the previous issues are resolved, I would just like to reiterate that I'm simply giving my point of view in this quite frankly, one sided argument I see time and time again.

I hope that some people will look at this thread and see the other side to this argument now. That will be all thanks for all your expert opinions :biggrin:

 

[cat2408]

p.s sorry for all my typos predictive text is a pain I didn't purposely use words in the wrong context I am literate I promise

Thanks for all your time xxx

 

[NancySyd]

You are missing my point, how can the product be counterfeit if the company has obtained all necessary documentation to sell it in the US and Europe? Yes there have obviously been copyright issues in the past which has led to the changing of names ect. but what I am trying to get across is that this is no longer an issue as they do not use the word shellac in their branding. You can now by direct from the wholesaler not on ebay things have changed and I think it should be made known that there are other options out there,
If insurers cover them and they do not use dangerous products and are legally allowed to sell in Europe and US then they are not counterfeit.

Feel free to do some research on the current copyright situation instead of relying on the myths of the company standing for 'carbon copy of' (which indecently I've only ever seen used on forums like theses) you'll find the previous issues are resolved, I would just like to reiterate that I'm simply giving my point of view in this quite frankly, one sided argument I see time and time again.

I hope that some people will look at this thread and see the other side to this argument now. That will be all thanks for all your expert opinions :biggrin:

I have researched the legal situations and the lawsuits are ongoing. The counterfeit issues are not resolved. Taking "shellac" off the label was done to mitigate the lawsuit from CND (there are others) but there has been no final settlement or verdict. You might also read the seizure order from last year's CosmoProf in Las Vegas. "If insurers cover them and they do not use dangerous products and are legally allowed to sell in Europe and US then they are not counterfeit." That is not the legal definition of counterfeit. There is a legal definition and BS and CCO have been deemed counterfeit by that legal definition, at least in the US (and EU standards are usually stricter). You are entitled to your opinion, but the facts are the facts and you have not provided any facts or arguments that alter those facts.

But even if these were not counterfeit, they are certainly not professional products and I must question why you would use them when there are better-sported professional products that cost less. If you want to use them, fine, but stop trying to convince others that these are not counterfeit. Again, you have that right, but we have the right not to be convinced.

 

[surf girl]

Counterfeit means imitation.....
Like primark imitate the catwalk styles and sell them very cheap, like new look imitate vans and converse and sell them very cheap.... I know in the past there was a big hoo harr over the saftey of cco products (which is now gone!) and that they copied their bottles (ahem... Primark copies the big names too) but none of those cheaper uv nail products you mentioned are in the same price range as cco really, I have got quite a few cco polishes now and I find them flawless! I did research on here of all the pros and cons and decided to get a bottle to try, I'm one of "those businesses" that can't afford the outlay for shellac, I've now got about 10 colours and every one is perfect! I explain to customers it's NOT shellac and the reason why is because I like them to know it's not hypoallergenic like shellac is, they still get their nails done and they love it, I've actually had my current colour on since before Xmas and it's still perfect now

 

[NancySyd]

Counterfeit means imitation.....
Like primark imitate the catwalk styles and sell them very cheap, like new look imitate vans and converse and sell them very cheap.... I know in the past there was a big hoo harr over the saftey of cco products (which is now gone!) and that they copied their bottles (ahem... Primark copies the big names too) but none of those cheaper uv nail products you mentioned are in the same price range as cco really, I have got quite a few cco polishes now and I find them flawless! I did research on here of all the pros and cons and decided to get a bottle to try, I'm one of "those businesses" that can't afford the outlay for shellac, I've now got about 10 colours and every one is perfect! I explain to customers it's NOT shellac and the reason why is because I like them to know it's not hypoallergenic like shellac is, they still get their nails done and they love it, I've actually had my current colour on since before Xmas and it's still perfect now

Sorry, but that's not correct. Counterfeit in this context has a specific legal definition and these products have met that definition; the courts have spoken on this. But even in the vernacular, counterfeit means to fraudulently imitate. It could be argued that all gel polishes are imitations of HNH Gelish or CND Shellac. The difference (as in the examples you gave) is that these are brands that stand on their own - they even advertise as Primark, New Look, etc.. There is no fraud involved.

Again, you have a right to do what you want, but let's not start rationalizing by obscuring the facts.

 

[squidgernetball]

I resent the implication that those buying the real deal are supported by rich husbands or parents. I'm sure that many like me didn't expect Rome to be built in a day. I didn't go out and buy every colour available, charging it to my husbands Amex because he doesn't have one. I worked hard and grew my business. I bought a few more colours and grew my business. I did further training and grew my business and all the way along I have bought, traded and worked with integrity.

If you want to use cheap products I'm at a loss as to why you have to come on a site you have just joined to justify your decisions. Could it be that you're just being provocative?

I don't actually care what you use, but I object to the implication that a successful business that uses the correct products has to be on the back of someone else's funding.

Vic x

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[squidgernetball]

I would also add that there have been some great and informative posts about cuccio and gel ll amongst others with no knockback because they are seen as pro brands - it's not all just CND as you are implying.

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[Essential Treat]

I too am struggling with the point you are trying to make. As Nancysyd has explained (at length) this is, in legal terms at the very least, a counterfeit brand. The implication that those of us who choose to use the legitimate CND Shellac or Harmony Gelish are reliant on rich husbands/boyfriends/sugar daddy's/whatever is, frankly, offensive. Apart from anything else, have you worked out a cost per service? You may find the result eye opening.

 

[surf girl]

Do u get more out of a bottle of shellac and gelish then? Genuine question

 

[SambucaBeau]

You are right that you are going to get some serious pushback, but I fear you do not understand why, so I'll start it.



I don't think this about being a CND loyalist, (I don't think anyone would mistake me for one!), since the counterfeiters, including BS and CCO, also copy HNH Gelish and OPI. I also don't think this is about the performance of the product. I think this is about the integrity of the individual tech and the profession.



First of all, are you honest and forthcoming with your clients about what you are using on their nails? These products are designed to deceive. Since the counterfeit bottles copy the graphic identity of CND Shellac or HNH Gelish, do you make sure your clients know the difference? Are you telling them when they pick a counterfeit that it is not the name brand and does not have the attributes of the name brand (hypoallergenic, for example)?



Second, do you have the MSDS for these counterfeit brands? Where I am, that is required.



Third, one of the things that distinguish an NSS is that they do not use the proper products. One of the first things I do in upgrading salons is have them purchase proper product. It is naive (at best) to come on a professional forum and advocate using products that don't support professionals. BS and CCO do not provide supporting products, customer service, training and education, or R&D.



Finally, you have a right to do with your business what you want, as long as you are honest about it. But what I hear from you are excuses. To my mind, if you are so poorly capitalized that you cannot afford the basic products of your industry, if you cannot be in business without resorting to counterfeits, you are not ready to be in business.

Mam, I think that them last 2 sentences are a bit harsh! If you are trained, and insurance covers the brand, and honest with clients, and clients are happy and returning - who are you to judge whether they should be in business or not. Pipe it down mam.

 

[Essential Treat]

Kahuna Hair, there is an old thread on here somewhere about cost per service, I can't find the link at the moment, but the point is that the difference between using the legitimate brands with the research, training, marketing support etc etc behind them vs the counterfeiters is pennies per service. So what's the point? Yes, you may be saving a teeny tiny bit of cash (and yeah, count your pennies...) but in this case, I really think the advantages and benefits of using legitimate products result in benefits if their own. Not trying to be contraversial, just replying to your question. x

 

[AcidPerm]

I have got quite a few cco polishes now and I find them flawless! I did research on here of all the pros and cons and decided to get a bottle to try, I'm one of "those businesses" that can't afford the outlay for shellac, I've now got about 10 colours and every one is perfect!...

Must say, I'm very surprised to read this.

You're not known on here for being very tolerant of hairdressers using Sallys own brand of products or Nail techs buying counterfeit products for that matter....if your post in the Biz forum yesterday is anything to go by?

Pot - kettle?

 

[surf girl]

I think I may have read the post at some point actually, I do see where your coming from with regards to the product being started off as a counterfeit product but I can't deny the quality of it for the price, I've had shellac & gellish & a few other brands on my nails in the past and I really don't see this as any better or worse from a consumer point of view, from a business point of view I do understand the value of the "brand" being behind you but if you can get good results from a cheaper product why not use it!? I have the same issues with the hair side of it too (not that the cheap colour brand I use started as a counterfeit mind) I have a range which does 100ml tubes of colour for x amount with 1 range and 60ml tubes of colour which are double the price in the other range, I'd love to switch completely over to the more expensive range and "be the brand" but it just dosent make financial sense when the cheaper product does the same job.... So I use the best ones from cheaper range and the ones that fall short of my expectations I use the more expensive range for, if cco fell short of my expectations I wouldn't use it but it has been fantastic in my experience so I will continue to use it, I think the debate on this product will always sway toward the counterfeit rip off side of things which is all well and good but I don't really give a monkeys about that, it wasn't my company so why would I care? it actually isn't a bad product & all the saftey info is available, it's insurable, it lasts well, removes well and is cost effective, I as you can tell am not a capitalist

 

[happyfeet]

My tuppence is this, if I have to take to social media to 'defend' my brand, I'd be asking myself why I'm using a product that needs defending.

The origins of this product didn't start well. They were passing off, hence the legalities.

I know full well, as does the vast majority, how much money needs to be put in to a business at the start and to maintain it.

It's a pity that my brand vs your brand was mentioned when this thread was dredged up.

You know what I think the sadest thing is though? If people didn't buy these cheap non professional brands and people held their prices using quality, professional products, then you may just see less price wars, more flourishing business's and nail technicians being chosen for their ability over cost.

There are several professional brands that are low cost but top quality. I'd rather put my money with them, as opposed towards a 'brand' that tried to pass off their product at the beginning and are now turning a profit by selling to anyone at the lowest price.

This isn't a your brand versus mine debate, this is about using top quality products, taking pride in your hard work and aligning yourself with a business that shares the same business ethics as you.



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[surf girl]

Must say, I'm very surprised to read this.



You're not known on here for being very tolerant of hairdressers using Sallys own brand of products or Nail techs buying counterfeit products for that matter....if your post in the Biz forum yesterday is anything to go by?



Pot - kettle?

Sallys own brand!?! What are you on about 😂 I never mentioned their own brand, I was talking about professional products being sold to non pros. I stated that it was damaging to business owners pockets when people but their own gellish kits from sallys and eBay etc I never mentioned anything about counterfeit!

Get ur facts straight ☺️ and as your a mod should you really be making implications such as "pot kettle"?? Not very professional for a mod... I must say

 

[Redduck]

I always read the 'my brand v your brand' threads as there's often some good information on board. However, the 'you use an expensive brand because you have a rich husband' argument had me laughing out loud.

I really don't care what other people do or what products they use but if that is your defence....really?!???'