HairbyJess
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Dodgy enquiries for massage
- Thread starter JanVenus
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I have this theory that pervs can spot those who lack the confidence to complain and make a fuss. When a blameless victim scuttles away in shame and pain, the perv gets a consequence free reward. Some people don’t even see their victim’s pain as real. Think of the young bar maid getting flustered by teasing rugby types. It’s a game, they’re bored. She’s prey and they feel like lions.
If you are massaging a man for the first time, of course set up all the security you can, chaperones, cameras etc and also ask for a deposit, refuse cash and get them to pay with a card before they take their clothes off. Check the name on the card. I train my staff not to engage in questionable dialogue. Not to talk about themselves, or chat with clients about their private life on the couch. If the client asks a direct question, respond with silence. Talk only about the massage.
Any nonsense during the treatment Just walk out the door saying “get dressed and leave or I will call the Police” as you are closing the door behind yourself. You need to mentally rehearse this beforehand. If you are in a room wondering whether you should actually go through with this drastic action, the answer is yes. Just thinking about it, tells you everything you need to know. It’s important to realise that you have the power. It’s your place and your rules.
Ive had a few men start a iffy line of conversation, but because I’m older and wiser, I don’t worry about where this might go, I think “dumb prat”. The power of a disapproving silence should never be underestimated. I’ve never needed to walk out, but I have been prepared to. The really nasty types will pounce and physically intimidate you without any warning, just like a lion, so get yourself out of the danger zone. Don’t try and negotiate your way out of trouble. You don’t need to talk, you need to act!
I genuinely believe that if you have brainwashed yourself into responding to the first sign of trouble in this way, you will not become a victim in your own treatment room and you will only have respectful men who treat you properly.
If you are massaging a man for the first time, of course set up all the security you can, chaperones, cameras etc and also ask for a deposit, refuse cash and get them to pay with a card before they take their clothes off. Check the name on the card. I train my staff not to engage in questionable dialogue. Not to talk about themselves, or chat with clients about their private life on the couch. If the client asks a direct question, respond with silence. Talk only about the massage.
Any nonsense during the treatment Just walk out the door saying “get dressed and leave or I will call the Police” as you are closing the door behind yourself. You need to mentally rehearse this beforehand. If you are in a room wondering whether you should actually go through with this drastic action, the answer is yes. Just thinking about it, tells you everything you need to know. It’s important to realise that you have the power. It’s your place and your rules.
Ive had a few men start a iffy line of conversation, but because I’m older and wiser, I don’t worry about where this might go, I think “dumb prat”. The power of a disapproving silence should never be underestimated. I’ve never needed to walk out, but I have been prepared to. The really nasty types will pounce and physically intimidate you without any warning, just like a lion, so get yourself out of the danger zone. Don’t try and negotiate your way out of trouble. You don’t need to talk, you need to act!
I genuinely believe that if you have brainwashed yourself into responding to the first sign of trouble in this way, you will not become a victim in your own treatment room and you will only have respectful men who treat you properly.
What's the exemption code?
And it needs to be posted on the business page/website with an explanation.
Saying that your not taking on new male clients would be discrimination. Can't do that day/time could get around it on a 1 to 1 basis.
That would be a breach of data protection and breach of ico regulations for use of cctv images.
Yes you can. See the Equality Commission guidelines (link below)
Words and terms used in the Equality Act | Equality and Human Rights Commission
With personal services you can specify gender. it’s not automatically discriminatory as long as you have a justifiable reason. Having concerns about Health and Safety and the difficulty of ensuring solo working is safe, is perfectly acceptable.
There are also legitimate business reasons and technical reasons to refuse - male and female hair requires different styling techniques and you’re not obliged to offer unisex services, you can be a ladies hairdresser or a barber for instance. Also there are different prices/timings for these services. You might not be competitive for a male haircut.
So if you don’t want to turn away a male enquiry you can always say that you have a minimum booking fee based on X time, so you’d need to book a couple of kids with a male haircut, or book an adult couple.
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I think it's shocking and horrific how mnay of you believe its OK to say what your saying. Some of you suggesting that all men are a danger to you and your tarring us all with the same brush. It's honestly upsetting and discrimination at its most obvious.
Most issues I've had in customer facing roles have been with women being aggressive and making accusations that are unfounded. But I'd never turn someone down based on their gender. I understand that some things eg intimate areas may be restricted but not point black refusals of service.
Everyone who's suggest that men are a danger have honestly damaged the industry in my view, I'm embarrassed for you.
As a gay man should I remember the time I had a complaint against me saying I sexually assaulted a women, when I reality I refused her service and she punched me but tried to lie to justify it.(thankfully cctv proved her claims unfounded and after weeks this was dropped as it was proved false) should I there fore say all women would treat me the same way? And refuse to treat all women?
If I said sorry I don't provide services to women there would be Facebook tiots against me. This is extreamly unfair.
I understand that some aspects would be uncomfortable, I wouldn't provide a full body massage to a women as I believe that's unprofessional but I would provide back and shoulder massage.
Most issues I've had in customer facing roles have been with women being aggressive and making accusations that are unfounded. But I'd never turn someone down based on their gender. I understand that some things eg intimate areas may be restricted but not point black refusals of service.
Everyone who's suggest that men are a danger have honestly damaged the industry in my view, I'm embarrassed for you.
As a gay man should I remember the time I had a complaint against me saying I sexually assaulted a women, when I reality I refused her service and she punched me but tried to lie to justify it.(thankfully cctv proved her claims unfounded and after weeks this was dropped as it was proved false) should I there fore say all women would treat me the same way? And refuse to treat all women?
If I said sorry I don't provide services to women there would be Facebook tiots against me. This is extreamly unfair.
I understand that some aspects would be uncomfortable, I wouldn't provide a full body massage to a women as I believe that's unprofessional but I would provide back and shoulder massage.
This is horrific, cutting hair is not a personal service like this. Touching an intimate area yes.
Here is what quality human rights says when it comes to hairdressers.
Equality law applies to any business that provides goods, facilities or services to members of the public.
This includes hairdressers, barbers, beauty salons, spas and manicure services among others. This ranges from sole traders who visit people in their own homes to large national chains.
It doesn’t matter whether the service is free, for example, a free haircut provided to people willing to be models, or whether it must be paid for – it will still be covered by equality law.
Chris I’m sorry you’ve had these experiences but this is why it’s so difficult to have 2 people alone in a room where misunderstandings can occur. Everyone has a right to feel safe.
I don’t know what it feels like to be falsely accused but I’m sure it’s very distressing. I have been massaged by a bloke, alone on the premises and thought “this guy is an idiot what if there was a misunderstanding”
I don’t know if you’ve ever been pinned to the wall by your throat with your feet off the ground, by a man that you’ve happily worked with for years. But I have. I was so terrified I nearly wet myself. The physical differences between men and women create issues.
Avoiding misunderstandings is essential. Most men are lovely, most women are anxious.
I don’t know what it feels like to be falsely accused but I’m sure it’s very distressing. I have been massaged by a bloke, alone on the premises and thought “this guy is an idiot what if there was a misunderstanding”
I don’t know if you’ve ever been pinned to the wall by your throat with your feet off the ground, by a man that you’ve happily worked with for years. But I have. I was so terrified I nearly wet myself. The physical differences between men and women create issues.
Avoiding misunderstandings is essential. Most men are lovely, most women are anxious.
Kyralouise
Well-Known Member
wow.... I've been keeping up to date with this thread and saw your replies. Although Chris is a unisex name, I think we could all tell you were a man!
If women think that "all men" are a danger to us, I really think that says more about you than us. We haven't collectively decided that men are a danger, based off no experience. The fact that this thread exists tells you that we have all had experiences like this at least once. I can't see a single reply saying that something appropriate happened with a female client. So no its not "all men" but its never women.
I understand there will always be times that either gender will be made to feel uncomfortable by the opposite gender and the same gander too. In the many years I ran pubs and hotels I've had knives held to my throat (was a women) , I've broken up domestic abuse in hotel rooms, had to get involved in human trafficking when victims were in my hotel but not once have I been able to consider the gender of the person involved. I couldn't think I won't serve this person because they might do something later, or they are creepy. I have far more issues with women (sometimes trying to defend their abuser) and couldn't imagine ever letting gender play a role in offering a service now. Yes to private areas completely but it's shocking to see so many people say what they are on here.
A genuinely shocking response.
For clarity HairbyJess you don’t have to cut male hair if you don’t want to.
I might want to plonk myself in a barber’s chair and ask for a £15 trim, but he or she can refuse to serve me - even if the service is offered to men with a similar hairstyle. The barber (male or female) is allowed to say “I only offer male barbering services”. I’m not saying that it’s right - but it is accepted as legitimate practise. I’m pretty sure there have been some test cases in the past - I’d have to double check.
and Chris you are correct for your former industry. In hospitality you can’t discriminate by gender, you can’t refuse to employ a slight woman to do a physically demanding job, you have to take her on and accommodate her physical limitations. You can’t ban group bookings of women, but you can refuse gender specific group bookings as long as you are not treating one gender less favourably.
Different rules apply in the hair and beauty industry and you might think it’s manifestly unfair, however until there is a test case backing up your interpretation of the equality act, we are going to carry on making the decisions that suit us best.
I don’t turn men away as I run a high Street business. Discrimination by gender would be unreasonable because of my business size.
I am an equality employer, my staff can refuse to treat men on religious grounds and I can refuse to employ them if this isn’t practical. I’d have to prove that I couldn’t offer alternative employment.
I have a duty of care to risk assess a situation and if an employee feels anxious I should not place her in a situation where she feels unsafe. Even if I think she’s being unprofessional and immature. I have to consider the situation and try and be fair to staff and clients.
I had a soldier booking a massage with me last weekend who persistently asked me to massage his glutes with the not very reassuring comment that he wasn’t a pervert “honest”. This is inappropriate behaviour. I didn’t have to accept his booking because he made me feel uncomfortable. However, I was able to provide a chaperone so I accepted him, I was happy with my risk assessment that I had mitigated the risks and acted professionally (I’m clinically qualified).
For the questions here, from junior entrants to the industry, working solo. Get real. If you think you can go to a tribunal and successfully sue for discrimination because a mobile hairdresser refused to accept a barbering enquiry, or a massage therapist didn’t want a half naked unknown male in her garden cabin you are unrealistic iMHO
I’m also aware Chris, that, as an inexperienced manager in this industry, you lack the training to understand that not all of your expertise from another unrelated sector is relevant and transferable. There are plenty of level 4 sector specific management courses which you can do by distance learning, you might find it useful to ensure you are up to date. I’m sure, if I went into hospitality, you’d encourage me to do the same.
I might want to plonk myself in a barber’s chair and ask for a £15 trim, but he or she can refuse to serve me - even if the service is offered to men with a similar hairstyle. The barber (male or female) is allowed to say “I only offer male barbering services”. I’m not saying that it’s right - but it is accepted as legitimate practise. I’m pretty sure there have been some test cases in the past - I’d have to double check.
and Chris you are correct for your former industry. In hospitality you can’t discriminate by gender, you can’t refuse to employ a slight woman to do a physically demanding job, you have to take her on and accommodate her physical limitations. You can’t ban group bookings of women, but you can refuse gender specific group bookings as long as you are not treating one gender less favourably.
Different rules apply in the hair and beauty industry and you might think it’s manifestly unfair, however until there is a test case backing up your interpretation of the equality act, we are going to carry on making the decisions that suit us best.
I don’t turn men away as I run a high Street business. Discrimination by gender would be unreasonable because of my business size.
I am an equality employer, my staff can refuse to treat men on religious grounds and I can refuse to employ them if this isn’t practical. I’d have to prove that I couldn’t offer alternative employment.
I have a duty of care to risk assess a situation and if an employee feels anxious I should not place her in a situation where she feels unsafe. Even if I think she’s being unprofessional and immature. I have to consider the situation and try and be fair to staff and clients.
I had a soldier booking a massage with me last weekend who persistently asked me to massage his glutes with the not very reassuring comment that he wasn’t a pervert “honest”. This is inappropriate behaviour. I didn’t have to accept his booking because he made me feel uncomfortable. However, I was able to provide a chaperone so I accepted him, I was happy with my risk assessment that I had mitigated the risks and acted professionally (I’m clinically qualified).
For the questions here, from junior entrants to the industry, working solo. Get real. If you think you can go to a tribunal and successfully sue for discrimination because a mobile hairdresser refused to accept a barbering enquiry, or a massage therapist didn’t want a half naked unknown male in her garden cabin you are unrealistic iMHO
I’m also aware Chris, that, as an inexperienced manager in this industry, you lack the training to understand that not all of your expertise from another unrelated sector is relevant and transferable. There are plenty of level 4 sector specific management courses which you can do by distance learning, you might find it useful to ensure you are up to date. I’m sure, if I went into hospitality, you’d encourage me to do the same.
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When I started massaging last century, I advertised with a web site. Back then, web sites were mainly the domain of the military and adult sites. So many things we take for granted with web sites were originally designed for adult sites, things like online payments, subscription services, even the annoying pop ups. I used to view it as I was in 'their' domain, people were going to get confused, but now practically everyone uses the internet and those looking for more than a massage should really be able to tell the difference between what they are looking for and a business that has nothing to do with what they are looking for.
Back in the olden times,
websites could be confusing, they'd think 'oh, this site is just pretending to be a legit business, if I ask the right questions, they'll know what I'm looking for' so there'd be the slimey 'do you massage EVERYTHING?'. I think it is learnt behaviour, because why on earth don't the 20 something's know the difference? Someone has, nudge nudge, told them never believe it when someone says 'no'. It's so repetitive! I'm not scared of it, I'm just bored!
I will say those looking for more than a massage aren't always looking for 'adult' services, sometimes they just want an ego stroke. I've had a few women that just seem to want to be complimented (I think), sometimes it seems to be about their amazing house.
The one thing I've found is that if they are looking for more than a massage they invariably want one NOW. Unknown male calls, I get in the fact I have no appointments until next week, and they get off the phone very quickly. I will get that in before any talk. I do miss out on some people that might've done too much gardening over the weekend and they do need a massage Monday, but I am not the only massage therapist out there, if they found me, they can find someone that can be more comfortable working on them (multi-practitioner clinic, etc).
Over the last 10 years I've only had one guy get through my screening, poor thing turned up 30min early, all freshly showered, with a bottle of after shave poured over him, I opened the door, he looked so crestfallen, he started muttering, I said 'its ok, you don't have to stay' and he ran off.
Back in the olden times,
websites could be confusing, they'd think 'oh, this site is just pretending to be a legit business, if I ask the right questions, they'll know what I'm looking for' so there'd be the slimey 'do you massage EVERYTHING?'. I think it is learnt behaviour, because why on earth don't the 20 something's know the difference? Someone has, nudge nudge, told them never believe it when someone says 'no'. It's so repetitive! I'm not scared of it, I'm just bored! I will say those looking for more than a massage aren't always looking for 'adult' services, sometimes they just want an ego stroke. I've had a few women that just seem to want to be complimented (I think), sometimes it seems to be about their amazing house.
The one thing I've found is that if they are looking for more than a massage they invariably want one NOW. Unknown male calls, I get in the fact I have no appointments until next week, and they get off the phone very quickly. I will get that in before any talk. I do miss out on some people that might've done too much gardening over the weekend and they do need a massage Monday, but I am not the only massage therapist out there, if they found me, they can find someone that can be more comfortable working on them (multi-practitioner clinic, etc).
Over the last 10 years I've only had one guy get through my screening, poor thing turned up 30min early, all freshly showered, with a bottle of after shave poured over him, I opened the door, he looked so crestfallen, he started muttering, I said 'its ok, you don't have to stay' and he ran off.
I am already undertaking distanced learning for salon and beauty management and this has covered discrimination. And has put that you can't refuse anyone based on gender, you can limit services if they involve intimate areas. The point made is that black and white people have different hair that requires different techniques to achieve certain results. Would you find it acceptable to refused someone based on race? No, and this should be counted towards gender too.
I have many close friends who work in the hair and beauty industry and they don't refuse anyone based on gender. And the friend that owns a chain of barbers is very open that it would be discrimination if he or any of his team refused to cut a woman's hair.
This thread has left me seriously considering if I could comfortably employ any women considering my business is going to be a unisex salon and spa. And it would seem that female employees would not be willing to treat/assist male clients.
There is a HUGE difference between working in an environment with multiple people around and going out to a home visit alone, or having someone attending a home based business with no-one else at home.
BUT even in a business with lots of people around, you have to empower your staff so if anything is inappropriate they are confident in saying 'no, that's the end of your treatment'
Kyralouise
Well-Known Member
Equality law - Hairdressers, barbers and beauty salons | Equality and Human Rights Commission
"If you run a beauty-related business and want to provide separate services for men and women or a single-sex service for men or women only, then you need to be able to objectively justify providing your service in this way. You must meet other conditions as well, such as that a joint service would be less effective, or that men’s needs and women’s needs are different.
For example:
A beauty therapist who operates on her own and provides massages in clients’ own homes only provides this service to women. She believes the restriction is objectively justified and it also involves physical contact between the client and herself, which is something she has a reasonable objection to. It is likely that the provision of the service in this way will come within the exception."
"If you run a beauty-related business and want to provide separate services for men and women or a single-sex service for men or women only, then you need to be able to objectively justify providing your service in this way. You must meet other conditions as well, such as that a joint service would be less effective, or that men’s needs and women’s needs are different.
For example:
A beauty therapist who operates on her own and provides massages in clients’ own homes only provides this service to women. She believes the restriction is objectively justified and it also involves physical contact between the client and herself, which is something she has a reasonable objection to. It is likely that the provision of the service in this way will come within the exception."
Absolutely having the right to stop a treatment, but refusing before they begin no.
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That’s simply untrue. Here’s the exemption where massage is specifically mentioned.
Equality Act 2010
737.This paragraph replaces some similar provisions that only covered public functions and some that applied to services in the Sex Discrimination Act 1975. These exceptions have been extended to cover both services and public functions.
738. These exceptions would allow:
- a cervical cancer screening service to be provided to women only, as only women need the service;
- a fathers’ support group to be set up by a private nursery as there is insufficient attendance by men at the parents’ group;
- a domestic violence support unit to be set up by a local authority for women only but there is no men-only unit because of insufficient demand;
- separate male and female wards to be provided in a hospital;
- separate male and female changing rooms to be provided in a department store;
- a massage service to be provided to women only by a female massage therapist with her own business
Thats disgusting, genuinely vile that if that's the case. But only applies to self employed from that?!
I'm seriously rethinking any involvement in this industry now that it seems to support discrimination.
