Professional Recommendations?

[florence2004]

Hi geeks
My interpretaion on this would be:

if someone post a question about dry skin for instance and wants to know what to use as long as OTC remidies are not being recommended for that person and we are only advising that that is what we use and it works for us then this is ok. That person then makes the decision as to whether they want to go buy it.

However professional geeks who are trained in their area and know their products inside out can recommend them, having said that I would have thought that it is still a little unethical to reccommend a product to a client who you haven't seen.

 

[pure]

for me it would purely be down to what was being asked.

I agree. Perhaps it is ever so slightly different with nails and hair? I would think that most people will only get their hair cut by a professional and their nail enhancements by trained techs. (OK I know that nss is a whole different story!)

But for beauty there is such a vast range of items that can be bought over the counter, from cosmetics to creams, expensive one offs, and items for daily use. Hair and nails just doesn't have the 'OTC' range that beauty does. It is quite the norm for people to go through their entire lives without having to ever step foot in a beauty salon, therefore as women we all have a huge knowledge (all be it in lay terms) of beauty products and cosmetics.

Having said that, this is a profesional forum and on the whole you'll find that most posts are about professional products and treatments. As it should be.

To be honest I'm not entirely sure what you're post is referring to. Is it this forum? A particular post? Or just a general concept? It's just that people are understandably getting a little defensive.:hug:

 

[becki x]

http://www.salongeek.com/hair-geek/52368-read-thread-before-posting.html

Check out what GMG thinks :wink2:

 

[JDs]

http://www.salongeek.com/hair-geek/52368-read-thread-before-posting.html

Check out what GMG thinks :wink2:

And this should apply to ALL forums.

pure


It's just that people are understandably getting a little defensive.:hug:

This should be a discussion and not a bash fest. There shouldn't be anyone getting Defensive. And if you feel you are getting defensive and aggravated, please feel free to step away and not post.:hug: Because sometimes we get so caught up in the moment that if we step away and come back later to it after thinking it over, we post in a totally different manner.

 

[gillian w]

I think the compromise can be what forum things are posted in and general skincare recommendations maybe chit chat.
There are some recommending and asking for a cream made by a fellow geek in chit chat at mo.So should or shouldnt this be allowed.I am fine with it but it obviously doesnt comply with geek comandments.

 

[ValencianNails]

I think the compromise can be what forum things are posted in and general skincare recommendations maybe chit chat.
There are some recommending and asking for a cream made by a fellow geek in chit chat at mo.So should or shouldnt this be allowed.I am fine with it but it obviously doesnt comply with geek comandments.

If the member is selling a professional product (and is licensed to do so or uses licensed products) for retail AND IT WORKS then yes I would consider it to be a professional product.

What say you guys?

 

[Chameleon]

I'm going to play devil's advocate here... I disagree with the last few posts... we're professionals and therefore we really should be recommending professional products, especially because this site is for salon professionals. Yes ok, we do have members who aren't trained but that doesn't mean we can't recommend professional products to them.

As far as I personally am concerned if any non-pro questions are being asked they should be in the Chitchat forum and all professional related questions/discussions should be in the professional forums.

{I'm going to duck from the flying objects coming in my direction now lol}

Intersting and even more interesting....I could not agree with you more sandi,even if my views are very forthright

Could i just turn it around ever so slightly??:lol:

Does that mean that salon and professional brands once start out in salons and spas and then go into Department stores are still regarded as "professional"??

This has happened with some French brands i know.

While away in France several weeks ago i saw a very well known brand in galerries lafayettes (similar to harvey nichols or harrods) and was quite amazed....and no it wasnt Academie...:lol: :!:

 

[Chameleon]

Is everyone talking in riddles or is it me .
Yes it is a professional site but anyone is allowed to look and to post.Everyone is allowed an opinion and everyone is allowed to reply to that opinion.
You will find everytime that if someone is recommending something that the true professionals on here do not agree with they will say and also explain why something should not be used or why something is not the best product etc etc.Surely this is of benefit to everyone
If we were only recommending professional products it would end up like a hardsale forum as people would only be recommending what they actually use and have knowledge about.
I know nothing about the ins and outs and scientifics of australian bodycare products but i still recommend them to people as i do certain clarins products.I recommend bodyshop eyemake up remover and bio oil.All these things can be bought over counter and i dont use them in my work i use Eve Taylor,but im only small and dont stock retail and i dont want to be or feel restricted to selling and recommending one company.
I think there is a lot of snobbery in skincare and a heck of a lot of rubbish in promotion. At the end of the day we also as professionals get the hard sell from the companies selling to us and they are very good at it and a lot of what they say is Botulox.

...and in answer Gillian im the The French are the biggest snobs going when it comes to Skincare:green:

 

[ValencianNails]

Could i just turn it around ever so slightly??:lol:

Does that mean that salon and professional brands once start out in salons and spas and then go into Department stores are still regarded as "professional"??

They then move from offering professional products to offering OTC products, so in effect I think no, because if they're offering OTC products in an OTC scenario then how can they be considered professionals?
(omg I think I've just offended peeps)!!!

 

[Chameleon]

They then move from offering professional products to offering OTC products, so in effect I think no, because if they're offering OTC products in an OTC scenario then how can they be considered professionals?
(omg I think I've just offended peeps)!!!

Yes,you see Sandi this has confused me with brands switching from "salon only" to department store,and i have to say it:irked: me off

This has happened with Elemis,a brand that being British i wanted to bring into the salon,as i live here in the uk.

Now they are in harvey Nichols,harrods...and a client told me they are now in John Lewis


Ive become a little cynical now and the first question i ask a skincare company is "will you be going into department stores??"

Im sorry i changed topic slightly but i felt it was relevant in the case that because i only recommend professional,i want it to remain that way:!:

Et alors,ive had my rant donc a bientot pour le

Good night moment,et bonne nuit!!:zzz:

 

[Chameleon]

Sorry im tired im sorry that was jumbled i meant to say good night but thinking in French for being on the phone to my mom earlier...


But keep this thread going guys...:lol:

 

[JDs]

Yes,you see Sandi this has confused me with brands switching from "salon only" to department store,and i have to say it:irked: me off

This has happened with Elemis,a brand that being British i wanted to bring into the salon,as i live here in the uk.

Now they are in harvey Nichols,harrods...and a client told me they are now in John Lewis


Ive become a little cynical now and the first question i ask a skincare company is "will you be going into department stores??"

Im sorry i changed topic slightly but i felt it was relevant in the case that because i only recommend professional,i want it to remain that way:!:

Ahhh so this discussion has came full circle. This is exactly my point!
I am a professional and want to remain being seen as a professional therefore I will try only my best to recommend professional.
The same thing with professional products being sold in the OTC stores is happening here also.

Take for example: Seaplasma by Focus 21..it was/is a wonderful product. They went public with it. I still buy it in the stores When I can find it.
It is the best mist moisturizer for hair and skin. I Love to apply it after spending a day in the sun. But because it is not sold in salons anymore, I will not recommend it to others as a professional.
We tend to boycott companies who decide to want their cake and eat it to. This is our livelyhood..retail.
Therefore, this is a professional site Correct? Everyone agree here? Everyone that is certified/licensed is a professional , correct?
So why recommend a non professional OTC product?

I am with you Beautyguru..and The Geek and Sandi and Sophiea...keep it Professional in all areas of our profession.

I might have insulted a few peeps also and I apologize~but i feel they are insulting our profession when they think it is okay to recommend OTC. JMHO

 

[Jeni Giles]

How interesting.... I'll add my 2 cents here, from what I have gathered in speaking with a fellow who came from the UK, JLife is his product range, wet styling and hair sculpting, professional products are sold only to professionals with no product diversion. Professional products remain available only to those trained in that area of expertise until such time that the company has grown and is sold or taken over by another company....like oh, Loreal (who owns most everything anyway)

In the states some professional products can be found (with their guarantees still on them) in the department stores. Most of these are stores that have a styling salon in them or the chain owns a styling salon. Like Loreal, Regis owns most chains and has partnerships with Malls and shopping centers. The stores are then able to buy mass quantities of "professional only" products and they sell them at a price usually a couple of dollars higher than we do in our salons. We cannot however be certain that the product in the bottles is what it says either. They cannot exchange it and it is not guaranteed.

Some of the professional only products here may be found OTC in other countries and vise versa.

You can come out from behind the tree Sandi, I don't throw well so it's safer out in the open!! I can see the point of not going into specific details on how to do something in an open forum, but I'm conflicted because there has been such great advice in the Nail Forum that is detailed step by step and how to, because I've learned so much from the information exchange. My best solution would be give general information and if someone needs more detail, send them a pm with specific questions. (have you moved Sandi? I may need that spot behind the tree for myself now!)

 

[JDs]

In the states some professional products can be found (with their guarantees still on them) in the department stores. Most of these are stores that have a styling salon in them or the chain owns a styling salon. Like Loreal, Regis owns most chains and has partnerships with Malls and shopping centers. The stores are then able to buy mass quantities of "professional only" products and they sell them at a price usually a couple of dollars higher than we do in our salons. We cannot however be certain that the product in the bottles is what it says either. They cannot exchange it and it is not guaranteed.

It apparently hasn't hit you yet in Idaho Jeni, All Stores, Fredmeyers, Rite Aid, Target, even some clothing stores over here sell blackmarketed Professional products. As you say, usually a couple of dollars higher, but in loads.

but I'm conflicted because there has been such great advice in the Nail Forum that is detailed step by step and how to, because I've learned so much from the information exchange. My best solution would be give general information and if someone needs more detail, send them a pm with specific questions.

We are really debating about the recommending OTC products.At least that what we WERE discussing. LOL

I, myself do not see a real problem with talking tech with others on procedures, it is the recommending non professional products to peep who may or may not be certified in our industry that bothers me and a few others.

(have you moved Sandi? I may need that spot behind the tree for myself now!)

it is really tight back here, sandi and I both are sharing this tree, but you are welcome to join us..:lol: I am sure I would have gotten a few neg reps for this one...

 

[gillian w]

I wouldnt be giving out any neg reps.Everyones entitled to their opinion.
I consider myself a very experienced professional and i still see no reason not to recommend an over the counter product if you have had experience that it works.
Im not going to be telling people to buy tubs of nivea for cleansing and baby lotion for moisturiser.Its more bits and pieces.There is a very fine line now on whats professional and whats otc we all know the products we are talking about.What about make up now thats a difficult one.
whatever is said on here is thrown into the ring for discussion. If you make too many rules on what we can and cant say a lot of helpful information would go amiss.

 

[oey]

I can see both sides here and my opinion is I would always recommend a professional product before an OTC one if it does the job it says on the tin. But - what would be do if we as professionals dont stock the particular product (even though it may be professional only) that you know is best for the client - recommend that they go to somebody else (so you would potentially lose all your business from them) or to get an otc product that may work just as well?!?!?!?!?

What does concern me is that the number of "professional only" products that are now available for joe public to purchase over the good old tinternet without a professional recommendation being involved. :evil:

 

[Katelisa]

I know that this one is confusing at best..I myself had to sit there and really think about what it was saying. And I came up with that the Geek does not want us to discuss nor recommend unprofessional skin, hair and nail products (OTC) and be very careful about how much actual information you give out concerning procedures.
Like for me being a hairmesser, I would not give out a step by step procedure on how to color your own hair at home using Miss Clairol. or with a "professional" haircolor line.
But to get into a discussion of different types of professional coloring and why they work and why they are different from others..This is promoting the professional side and not the OTC stuff. Can you understand what I am trying to say here?:lol:



Totally agree with you Sandi. So stop hiding behind that tree, nobody is throwing objects ...yet!:lol:

Sandi....duck quick....:lol:....:hug:

for me it would purely be down to what was being asked.....makeup and face cream ain't gonna hurt anyone...nor is nail enamel or cuticle oil....anymore than moose or hair gel is....

so if i was being asked for my opinion on whats a fab mascara or a good hair moose then i would say what i have used...and which was good and which was rubbish.

however....if i was being asked which hair dye was best or how do i do nail enhancements on myself, then nope i wouldn't give advise on those things as they can cause harm and be done wrong....i would recommend going to a professional.

so it would have to comedown to the question being asked....

I havnt had chance to read all the responses. But theres a difference between 'DIY-ers' and 'Consumers'. DIY-ers are people that botcfh their own TREATMENTS that shpould only be done y a trained professional. Consumers just want to use products in their day to day routine. They tw are COMPLETELY different!!

So, Fair enough not giving step by step instructions how someone can do a professional service (which DOES happen on here may i add, just look at the thread about wiping gel etc) But aside from out profession we are all just normal men and women , with opinions on consumer products wether they are OTC or pro. Same as we all have professional preferances.

I think this makes sense! lol.

The only way to stop your average jo getting their hands on all our fantastic useful info is by setting pro forums with passwords. And if your that much of a professional you'll pay a few quid to prove it and get in there!! But its unlikely that will happen, so for now, its just tough! lol.

 

[Bagpuss]

ok...think i am getting this now...

if i was in a beauty parlour and asked about a cream or product and they said yeah get XYZ from boots, would this look proffesional....maybe not no...but read on...

If i was with pals and asked about a cream or product and they said "i used XYZ from boots"...then thats different.

so i am a consumer....and i like to share what i have used and what worked for me.....and i think thats fine as long i make it clear that i am no expert.

however if i was an expert and had used a OTC product that was brill....would i be wrong to recommend this...?? just cos its OTC and not a professional product....??.....wouldnt my job as a expert be to recommend what was best for the client and not just what was only available to proffesionals...??

who's to say that all professional products are better than OTC products...???

(oh and i ain't offended by anyone....no-one should be hiding and what the heck are reps...??)...Love ya all. xx

 

[gillian w]

If i am asked my opinion on what someone can use to remove mascara or what can their daughter try on her spots im not going to tell them that they MUST only use professional products that will cost them an arm and a leg , i'll probably never see them again.
Ive had a good look at threads on here and generally all professionals are mostly recommending professional products , so its not too much of a problem in the forum anyway.

 

[Good Skin Day]

Right, this one's really got me thinking (can you tell?....I had to leave posting for a few days to have a think about it :green and I can see where you're all coming from.

I also want to mention that I don't think anyone's been 'bashed' as it says on page two.

Example 1 : I'm going to use the geek who blended a moisturiser for another geek, because she is a very skilled lady! Now, this product coming from Miss Skilled Geek is definitely a professional product - in my opinion the most professional product you can get as the geek making it knows the ins and outs of EVERY ingredient she's put in it. Now if this moisturiser was put in a nice bottle and retailed in Boots, would it be any less professional? In some eyes, apparently yes. In my eyes, no, because for me it is the ingredients that make a product 'professional', not where it is sold.

*I have put the word 'professional' in inverted commas above, because the words 'professional' and 'Boots' don't tend to go hand in hand. The point I'm trying to make is I am more bothered about the quality of a product and the ingredients, than whether a company "sells-out" to a major department store or drug store*

We have a couple of natural and organic lines of skincare in the salon. I mention these, but I don't 'sell' them, because I've never trusted a salesperson in my life, and I want my clients to feel comfortable with me! If my client has a problem with their skin and asks me about it, I will mention a product that could help from one of the ranges in the salon. If I know there is a product that I believe will do the job better, whether it is from Dermalogica (for example) or an OTC from Lush (for example), I will recommend this also. I'd prefer my clients to come back to me and say "That really worked, thankyou so much" and subsequently have trust in me, than just think I was a salesperson who pushed their own range unquestioningly. Remember, this is just my opinion!

I like certain things from different brands, I am not a one-brand pony! It goes for everything, even makeup - I like YSL for Touche and Mascara, I like Chanel for foundation and lip colour, I like Benefit for cheek colour and eye shadows. This is why I won't have retail makeup in the salon, or if I did, I would continue to recommend other brands also.

For me, on this thread, 'professional' has turned from quality ingredients and something you believe in, to something that can make you an extra few quid. Maybe I'm just a rubbish businesswoman, but I choose not to recommend solely professional products.

I think there are some excellent professional products, but then I think there are some OTC products of equal excellence. On the other hand, I think some professional products are awful, as are some OTC products.