Rachasorousrex
Well-Known Member
I completely agree with you. I tried to make a similar point, recently but was called cynical.
Can I use Gelish top coat instead over Shellac?
- Thread starter Nessie lloydy
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I completely agree with you. I tried to make a similar point, recently but was called cynical.
out of interest (no grief intended BTW x) , how would you say OPI manufacturing and R&D 'outgun' CND?
Thanks in advance x
I see the OP has realised it was her application of the topcoat that was the cause of her problem and has sorted it now, therefore no matter what topcoat had been used she would have had the same problem 
I use both systems but don't mix the two..as such although I am aware that Nail Harmony have said that their basecoat and topcoat can be used with any other UV polish system.
However when doing my own nails If using Shellac I use the full system from base, 2xcolour, top but then apply a coat of Gelish Top it Off which keeps my nails perfect no matter how many times I use my remover to remove my clients UV polish of choice.
I use both systems but don't mix the two..as such
although I am aware that Nail Harmony have said that their basecoat and topcoat can be used with any other UV polish system.However when doing my own nails If using Shellac I use the full system from base, 2xcolour, top but then apply a coat of Gelish Top it Off which keeps my nails perfect no matter how many times I use my remover to remove my clients UV polish of choice.
mum
Well-Known Member
So, to the FACTS, again!
The OP is asking about Shellac and Gellish (not all the other stuff). They are 2 different products. Gellish is a gel polish (no solvents). Shellac is a 'hybrid' a 'power polish' whatever name rocks your boat. It differs from a gel polish as it contains solvents as does a traditional polish.
The Gellish top coat is not totally permeable which is why the surface needs breaking by buffing before removal.
The solvents in Shellac obviously need to evaporate. The Shellac top coat is obviously permeable as it needs no buffing before removal as acetone can penetrate.
Those facts alone suggest that it is not ideal to use a gel polish top coat over a UV gel 'based' product that has solvents as part of its formula.
The OP is asking about Shellac and Gellish (not all the other stuff). They are 2 different products. Gellish is a gel polish (no solvents). Shellac is a 'hybrid' a 'power polish' whatever name rocks your boat. It differs from a gel polish as it contains solvents as does a traditional polish.
The Gellish top coat is not totally permeable which is why the surface needs breaking by buffing before removal.
The solvents in Shellac obviously need to evaporate. The Shellac top coat is obviously permeable as it needs no buffing before removal as acetone can penetrate.
Those facts alone suggest that it is not ideal to use a gel polish top coat over a UV gel 'based' product that has solvents as part of its formula.
NancySyd
Well-Known Member
CND invests heavily in R&D, as is appropriate to its mission and heritage, and its products reflect that investment - Solar Oil, Brisa Gel, Shellac, etc.. These are all innovative and science-based products. But it is a much smaller company with less market penetration than OPI which is also heavily R&D based and whose products reflect a similar level of innovation. CND's corporate revenues are about $62 million, and OPI's are over $300 million. OPI simply has more resources historically than CND, and now with the backing of Coty, its ability to "outgun" the competition has increased greatly. BTW, I say all of that not to diminish CND in any way, just to point out that it does have serious competition that is capable of excelling in manufacturing and R&D like CND.
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NancySyd
Well-Known Member
I'd have to question that logic. I think your argument speaks to why "gelly sandwiches" don't work so well, but they don't work with any of the gel top coats, including Shellac. It is not the presence or lack of solvents that define a product as a gel or UV gel polish. It is the UV oliomers and monomers and all of the gel polishes, including Shellac have those. And CND itself defined it as a gel lacquer in the MSDS. It is a hybrid gel polish, but it is still a gel polish - and it is not unique in that regard; Light Elegant and OPI also contain solvents.
In addition, I don't believe any of the gel polishes, including Shellac, are oxygen permeable which is what allows the solvents to evaporate. Shellac is permeable to acetone in a way that Gelish is not, but I think they are all non-permeable to oxygen. In fact, gels can't cure in the presence of oxygen, thus the existence of the inhibition layer.
mum
Well-Known Member
You're missing my point. I am not discussing the definition of what a gel polish is. I am pointing out the differences between Shellac and Gellish as the OP asked if Gellish top coat can be used over Shellac.
I'm sure it would be perfectly fine over another 'gel polish', as some have been informed. However, I would question it's use over a 'hybrid' and have explained why.
I'm sure it would be perfectly fine over another 'gel polish', as some have been informed. However, I would question it's use over a 'hybrid' and have explained why.
Vickyb1983
Active Member
I used to have this problem until I brought a lamp for better lighting on my nail desk and I realised I wasn't covering the whole nail with top coat especially down the side walls....I don't have this problem anymore, I'd suggest taking your time and making sure you cover all of the colour then you should be fine. I actually have a friend who wanted to use the gelish top coat over shellac so she phone Nail harmony who assured them its fine to use theirs, However, I'm all for sticking to a system and tbh they are going to say to use their product...hope this helps::biggrin:
Thanks Nancysyd for your great response....I am always interested to find out this type of information. I used to work in product development and design in another manufacturing arena, so alway love a few R&D facts from this industry x
Wonderland
Well-Known Member
Rinn
CND Shellac EA
The cost, to CND of keeping their products pro only....?!
mum
Well-Known Member
Ha! Yes. (Bit off topic that I've been moaning about) Also the gazillions of bottles of polish. Don't know why the comparison arose but 2 completely different types of companies
NancySyd
Well-Known Member
Is it a cost? Or is it just who/what CND is? I think CND and OPI are just different kinds of companies. You know, there is the constant debate over that issue and I'm not sure what side of the argument I agree with. I love CND's commitment to the professional and their education can't be beat. And not all of their products are professional only, although that is certainly the focus of the company. But OPI's broader view as a company dealing with both the professional and the consumer markets, I think has an advantage as well. I guess that's why this is such an interesting time to be a nail pro - there's so many options available to us now.
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NancySyd
Well-Known Member
But that is my point. I get your point, I just disagree with it. I think trying to differentiate Shellac as a "power polish" or hybrid obscures the larger point that Shellac is still a gel polish and is suitable for use under Gelish top coat. I've done it and it works great. The reason we've done it is that the resistance to acetone that Gelish has is especially helpful for nail techs.
But I think the OP has a more significant issue because the colour should not be coming off regardless of the topcoat! That's a curing problem and changing topcoat won't fix that.
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Interestingly CND may not see it as an out and out cost. It would depend on the company value proposition (which only their board members and directors will truly understand).
CND may well be working along the lines of a value proposition of making their product uniquely better compared to the competition (I do get this feeling from their approach to the market and the professional only product range they offer) whereas OPI may want to make the lives of their consumers easy by making their product readily available both through professional and retail outlets.
Either way they both offer great products and I agree there is such an exciting range of products for us to work with.
This has gone a little off the original OP's question I agree, but is still a very interesting and informative thread for all us 'Salon Geeks' xx
Happy Nailing guys! x :hug:
lelu
Well-Known Member
Enjoyed reading all this very useful info and debate. Thank you.
mum
Well-Known Member
I am afraid you do not get my point! There is clearly as aspect of Shellac that is a gel polish but it is not purely a gel polish; it has solvents in the formula and these are relevant to the 'system'. (Even many gel polish brands make a marketing point that they do not contain solvents as there is a difference!)
I am surprised that, on a professional forum, you are recommending that systems can be mixed! . If the 'system' that is being used is Shellac it is against manufacturers instructions to use anything other than their complete 'system'. To do this means the client is not receiving a full branded service and could negate insurance cover.
Those that choose to 'cherry pick', especially DIY'ers like yourself, make their own decisions. However, on a pro forum a strong message should ALWAYS be to follow manufacturers instructions.
NancySyd
Well-Known Member
Please, go back and read what I wrote. Again, I never recommended that systems should be mixed! As expressed several times in this and other threads, I was pointing out that we have two manufacturers who are giving contradictory instructions - Gelish says that it is okay to intermix with their base and top coats, with any gel polish including Shellac. For Gelish, this mixing is completely within the manufacturer's instructions. I also pointed out that if the reason not to use Gelish over Shellac was that Shellac is not a gel polish, that was not a valid reason, because Shellac is a gel polish. I know that you don't want to call Shellac a gel polish, but again I think the evidence is clear that it is and that it is not unique in that regard. You can argue that you shouldn't do it because Shellac doesn't want any intermixing with anything, and that's a valid argument, but my point is - what is one to do when the manufacturers' disagree? I think the intermixing issue is a lot like the lamp issue and that the manufacturers are going to have to come together and establish some common standards.
BTW, not just a DIYer, although I have not worked as a tech in many years, I do have a current license.
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HeatherDavis
Well-Known Member
I'm glad the OP got their answer: if color is coming off, the topcoat isn't fully covering the color coat. As long as she is using the CND UV Lamp, that's a fact.
I am alarmed that there is a large amount of misinformation in this thread though, and feel compelled to address it.
Here is a fact: CND Shellac is positioned as a power polish for a SCIENTIFIC REASON. Not a marketing scheme. What's listed on the MSDS is irrelevant unless you personally know the exact process, chemical amounts, and testing protocols that go into creating CND Shellac. Yes, it has some of the same properties as other UV cured polishes. But there are HUGE differences in the actual composition of Shellac.
For example, if you paint Shellac onto a nail, and then skip curing, the solvents begin to evaporate. It won't fully cure on its own, but it will get set enough that you can not manipulate it with your brush without streaking it. Another fact: CND Shellac won't cure fully in a good deal of other manufacturers lamps, including the Gelish lamp. I've tried it with a nail pro, it was a fail.
CND Shellac is formulated to be applied to the nail, and removed without ANY filing or damage. Really! This is because most "gel polishes" are merely hard gel that's been diffused, with pigment added to it. CND Shellac is NOT a hard gel. It's a new formulation in its own class, and no other product behaves exactly like it.
Another huge difference is e CND UV Lamp itself- the UV Output of the lamp is higher and steadier than almost every other lamp in the market. This is also a fact. If Shellac is just another "gel lacquer," it would have a large amount of photo initiators to make the gel cure. Shellac does not have a high level of these, and is also 3-free and hypoallergenic.
MSDS Sheets alone do not give enough information to come to a fact-based scientific conclusion, and is designed to provide both workers and emergency personnel with the proper procedures for handling or working with a particular substance. And that is all.
And while we are a "little guy," our R&D team is supported by none other than Doug Schoon, so I think it's safe to say we can play ball with any of the big guys
This has definitely been a thought provoking thread! And I appreciate reading each and every response- we are so blessed to be in this industry NOW as opposed to 30 years ago
I am alarmed that there is a large amount of misinformation in this thread though, and feel compelled to address it.
Here is a fact: CND Shellac is positioned as a power polish for a SCIENTIFIC REASON. Not a marketing scheme. What's listed on the MSDS is irrelevant unless you personally know the exact process, chemical amounts, and testing protocols that go into creating CND Shellac. Yes, it has some of the same properties as other UV cured polishes. But there are HUGE differences in the actual composition of Shellac.
For example, if you paint Shellac onto a nail, and then skip curing, the solvents begin to evaporate. It won't fully cure on its own, but it will get set enough that you can not manipulate it with your brush without streaking it. Another fact: CND Shellac won't cure fully in a good deal of other manufacturers lamps, including the Gelish lamp. I've tried it with a nail pro, it was a fail.
CND Shellac is formulated to be applied to the nail, and removed without ANY filing or damage. Really! This is because most "gel polishes" are merely hard gel that's been diffused, with pigment added to it. CND Shellac is NOT a hard gel. It's a new formulation in its own class, and no other product behaves exactly like it.
Another huge difference is e CND UV Lamp itself- the UV Output of the lamp is higher and steadier than almost every other lamp in the market. This is also a fact. If Shellac is just another "gel lacquer," it would have a large amount of photo initiators to make the gel cure. Shellac does not have a high level of these, and is also 3-free and hypoallergenic.
MSDS Sheets alone do not give enough information to come to a fact-based scientific conclusion, and is designed to provide both workers and emergency personnel with the proper procedures for handling or working with a particular substance. And that is all.
And while we are a "little guy," our R&D team is supported by none other than Doug Schoon, so I think it's safe to say we can play ball with any of the big guys
This has definitely been a thought provoking thread! And I appreciate reading each and every response- we are so blessed to be in this industry NOW as opposed to 30 years ago
mum
Well-Known Member
Thanks Heather for a lot of interesting information.
I presume there just isn't an accurate classification for Shellac as yet. I also suppose that the element of UV cure puts it more into the gel polish category in the absence of anything more suitable. I believe the original description of a 'hybrid' was more accurate but, from what I understand, this was found to be confusing as so many couldn't grasp the meaning of the word. So the term 'power polish' was used which I think is a good description whether a marketing strategy or a potential future classification.
The OP found her answer way back in this thread but it's still an interesting thread that is helping with the understanding of the 2 types of products. I would still recommend that the 2 different types of products are not mixed when clients are involved. It just isn't worth it.
I presume there just isn't an accurate classification for Shellac as yet. I also suppose that the element of UV cure puts it more into the gel polish category in the absence of anything more suitable. I believe the original description of a 'hybrid' was more accurate but, from what I understand, this was found to be confusing as so many couldn't grasp the meaning of the word. So the term 'power polish' was used which I think is a good description whether a marketing strategy or a potential future classification.
The OP found her answer way back in this thread but it's still an interesting thread that is helping with the understanding of the 2 types of products. I would still recommend that the 2 different types of products are not mixed when clients are involved. It just isn't worth it.
