Can Neutragena Hand Cream cause lifting of Bio Sculpture Gel?

[VHunter]

Back along I became a bit interested in bonds.....

http://www.salongeek.com/nail-geek/57570-bond-james-how-does-break.html

http://www.salongeek.com/nail-geek/58498-q-bonds.html

In my experience, I really don't think that creams, shampoos, cleaning product, for the time enhancements are exposed to them will break the bond. If prep and application is pure then the bond should remain for the life of the enhancement.

I think there are a few things that will affect the bond:

Incorrect ratio, a true bond hasn't been formed.
Too thick an enhancement, causing pocket lifting.
Incomplete prep.
Poor foundation for nail enhancements such as riged nails (I have found enhancement products (even covalent bonding ones) don't like very riged nails), thinned nails.
I'm sure there will be more but these are what we come across in the salon in the main.

One thing I have found is that a covalent bond has a better/stronger bond on an nno than a hydrogen bond. My experience has shown me that a hydrogen bond will curl away from a free edge, especially on a nail with a bit of c curve, very readily (flat nails aren't so susceptible) than a covalent bond, which will stay in place and not suffer curling.

Apologies if I have gone off tangent but I hope this makes sense and maybe helps a bit!

I stink at chemistry, I never got on well with it in hairdressing and I struggle just as hard now to keep everything straight in my head. :lol:
Although you explained it very well, it's all a foreign language to me. Need to crack out my books again:o (heck, I can't remember my mother's bday... don't expect me to remember chemistry ROFL)

All I know is that too many "coincidences" just seem to stop being a "coincidence" at some point.
And, from what I googled, it seems to be a "coincidence" that's happening elsewhere....

Victoria, the people that work in the machine shop, I wouldn't be surprised if vibration was the culprit, not the grease.

All the machines vibrate (my sister works there too, so I know quite a bit about the shop), but yes, I presume that it's "possible".
But.... as I said, too many "coincidences" eventually point to the culprit. After doing clients who are machinist's for 2.5yrs......I KNOW it's the silicone and NOT the vibrations.
I always know because I'll ask "silicone?" and they answer yes. In fact, the job with the silicone is more about 'fitting parts' together, and has very little to do with actual machining, and so....... minimal vibrations.

I don't have hard "chemistry" explanations.... all I know is what I see, and what works and doesn't.

 

[Cathie!]

I think but am no expert, that the latex emulsion (including water) polymerisation is a different kettle of fish to the polymerisation we are doing every day.

If your clients are fitting pieces together, surely this could be part of the lifting issue, like typists who tend to lift on index and middle with a hydrogen bond....which is the type of bond created when using acid primer?

We all go on experience, I've said about my experience, you, yours, so I'll leave it there as I'm no chemistry expert xxx

 

[ValencianNails]

Petroleum is a barrier, it will prevent other products getting through to the natural nail, but I don't see how it can help/aid lifting that isn't already present.

 

[VHunter]

Oh gosh, I couldn't begin to understand the differences in polymers etc lol
Well, I could IF I took the time to sit and read without kids bugging me :lol:
You're doing better than I am.:hug:

But, I don't use an acid primer.
And I don't have to worry about 'mix ratio' as I don't use L&P.
I use a protein bonder, coupled with a gel bonder, then apply my Uv Gel.
Sooo not sure what kind of bond it is.. without cracking out my books.

I so love a good debate.:hug:

 

[VHunter]

Petroleum is a barrier, it will prevent other products getting through to the natural nail, but I don't see how it can help/aid lifting that isn't already present.

What I intended with pulling up the info and links that I did was to point out that petroleum based products have been known to cause 'breakdown' in polymers and monomers (granted, different types of polymers etc out there...and I clearly don't know one from the other....I'm not claiming any expertise here).

So, my theory is that even if the prep/mix ratio/adhesion etc of the product is sound; once it is 'over exposed' (liberal amounts) to petroleum products, then a breakdown will occur and result in lifting.

And as I said; these occurences have been on clients who don't usually. or never, lift.
Too many coincidences.:wink2:

 

[The Geek]

Hey guys,

The point is that when a polymer forms a bond with the natural nail plate (regardless of whether its hydrogen or covalent), that bond is on a molecular level. For a substance to work 'between' that molecular bond and make it 'loose' would be pretty hard to imagine.

Forget petroleum products breaking down polymers. Acetone breaks down the polymers we use however not even acetone can 'work' the bonds loose. Acetone swells up and breaks down the polymer from the outside inward meaning the 'bonded' area will be one of the last affected areas.

The only way I could envision lotions and/or oils contributing to lifting is only in the instance they were on the surface of the nail plate before product was applied. However in that instance the lifting would be caused by insufficient prep

HTHs

(back to topic)

 

[Angie's Nails]

Thank you so much for all your replies.

I must admit I have in the past told my Clients not to worry about using hand creams, sun tan lotions etc with the Bio Gel after reading Doug Schoon's book.

I can't understand though why Bio Sculpture insist in their training, aftercare leaflets and training manual, and in speaking to them over the telephone that some products can cause the Gel to lift. I can certainly see how lifting can occur on a nail that has not been properly prepared and have learned this in the past through errors made myself but I am sure that the nails were prepared with great care as detailed earlier on in this thread. I am soooo strict with my prep routine.

I am so confused. I would like to believe that the gel will not be effected, but know that through experience if I use varnish remover (even some non acetone) on my own nails over gel the gel will bubble in front of my eyes and lift around the cuticle, and if I place my hands in Bleach or other cleaning product they will lift from the free edge. This also happens if I accidently get acetone on my finger nails. The gel will only start lifting from the free edge no where else.

Sorry but I'm a bit confused.

 

[Zingara]

Bio insist on you using their products and say others MAY (not will....just may) cause lifting as a way to get you to buy their products and their products only. Have you actually read the Bio Sculpture aftercare leaflet...a client would need a mortgage to buy what they say they should purchase off you! The only Bio aftercare product I retail is their top coat as this really is best on their gel.

I love my Bio sculpture, I really do, I've used it for years with great success on 100's of clients but they really are a very blinkered company. The product is fabulous...the supplier unfortunately is of the mistaken belief that they are superior and more intelligent than all their techs and clients, and we won't see through their little marketing ploys. Wrong!

The only thing that causes Bio to start lifting from the free edge is either the gel wasn't capped, or the cap has been filed away or removed. Properly capped Bio stays put and never budges.

I think it was possibly me that first introduced the concept of using Sealer gel on the natural nail as a base gel a couple of years back (after a very off the record conversation with a rebel Bio trainer!), to some techs on here when they had yellowing problems, and it really seems to have been adopted by a lot. It reduces the yellowing no end, but Sealer gel isn't that strong so if you have a client hard on her nails, you will have to supplement with S-gel for strength. If your client is particularly hard and she has got sealer and white on only, then it is possible she could be 'wearing away' the cap for lifting to occur and then this could be being helped by hand cream. Incidentally in this instance, even the Bio handcream will do the same....its not a miraculous product that sticks the gel back down....its just handcream!

I think if examined you be able to identify what has happened....you can usually see quite easily where the seal has broken, and allowed moisture in. Incidentally, I tell my clients that is one big advantage of Bio.....if the cap has broken (say, they file at home and don't reseal with top coat) and moisture gets in, the whole overlay tends to come away fairly quickly and cleanly, so nothing 'festers' under there, and they can nip back to me for replacement. It's hardly ever happened though...I only ever see my Bio clients 3 weekly and their all 100% intact!

 

[oey]

I just want to back Lyndsay 100% with everything she has said.

I have tried other soakable gels and Bio Sculpture is the one that has more staying power than any of the others I have tried. The only product I retail from the Bio range too is the gloss top coat and the polishes to match the gel colours. I dont retail the Bio polish remover (only reason is because of the postage cost Bio charge to deliver it to me). I do tell the clients to use a non acetone based polish remover and none of them have reported any problems with the choice or with any hand creams either.

The only type of product that I know clients have had a problem with is sun lotions that contain the mosquito repellant, Deet. It actually softens the gel greatly so I just warn clients who are going to sunnier climates of that so they can avoid their nails with this product and it is fine.

I do believe that Bio sculpture try to use these marketing tactics to get you to buy more their own products which are fine but not necessary.

 

[Angie's Nails]

I just want to back Lyndsay 100% with everything she has said.


The only type of product that I know clients have had a problem with is sun lotions that contain the mosquito repellant, Deet. It actually softens the gel greatly so I just warn clients who are going to sunnier climates of that so they can avoid their nails with this product and it is fine.

I do believe that Bio sculpture try to use these marketing tactics to get you to buy more their own products which are fine but not necessary.

Ahh she was on holiday at the time! She said she was using Nivea Sun Cream. So could be that I suppose. I spoke to her yesterday and her current set are fine. I said she could continue to use the hand cream. She didn't seem very happy and I wonder whether she will keep having her nails done now that she has experienced problems. It's such a shame that just one instance like this can put a client off. Her nails were fine before. Thank you so much for your comments I will find out about the suncream when I see her next. This kind of thing really knocks my confidence. Thank God for this website xx