Product diversion - buying from non authorised sources

[grafxgal]

Hi Victoria,

This is the way I understand it works.
When the distributor is given permission (so to speak) to sell the parent company's product they sign an agreement that they will only sell it within their territory, so by selling it over the internet to someone in another country, that is not part of their territory, that distributor is infact breaking their legal contract with the parent company, in which makes the distributors actions illegal.
Does this help?

 

[VHunter]

Ok, I understand part of that. An agreement/contract is just that, and to 'break' it is just plain wrong.

BUT why the agreement in the first place? This is a competitive world. If someone offers a better price, why shouldn't the consumer be allowed to take advantage OR if the seller is willing to take less profit by lowering their prices (and in the end, gain more clients, thereby increasing revenue) and why would it be "wrong" for the consumer?
It's very frowned upon, here on Geek.

I sell Avon. Nothing stops another Avon rep from trying to snag one of my clients. Dog eat dog, and all that. No one's being told "you cant sell in that neighborhood, there is already a rep"

Know what I mean?

I understand the contract... it makes sense that if you sign the dotted line, you ought to adhere to the agreement you made.
But why are these agreements in place?
And if a business is not required to sign such an agreement for whatever, reason; for those that are required (due to local or whoever THEIR dist'r is..) why is the person who didn't sign a 'bad guy'?
I'm sure laws are different country to country, and this is more or less what we're talking about.

Here in Montreal, we have more than one retailer/distributor of Creative products. And more than one retailer/distributor of EZ Flow (and OPI etc..)
Having said that, Montreal is just a city, never mind an entire country. And there are several distributors within the same city.
They are legit businesses, recognized distributors.
And they have healthy competition.

Who creates the rules/laws in the UK regarding distribution and 'territories'?
UK distributors themselves?
OR the parent companies from whom the products originate (say ex: the US regarding Creative?)
Does the US parent company say "Zappy can only sell to those countries, and zippy can only sell to these ones" ?

(am I a pest yet? LOL)

PS: so if the laws differ in Country A that doesn't set specific territories, and a consumer from Country B (who's dist's do have territories) wants to purchase from the Country A that doesn't have territories........ why is it wrong of the consumer OR of Country A? As per 'A', they're not breaking any rules, and as for the consumer; they didn't sign a dotted line outlining territories...

 

[wg19]

Ok, I understand part of that. An agreement/contract is just that, and to 'break' it is just plain wrong.

BUT why the agreement in the first place? This is a competitive world. If someone offers a better price, why shouldn't the consumer be allowed to take advantage OR if the seller is willing to take less profit by lowering their prices (and in the end, gain more clients, thereby increasing revenue) and why would it be "wrong" for the consumer?
It's very frowned upon, here on Geek.

I sell Avon. Nothing stops another Avon rep from trying to snag one of my clients. Dog eat dog, and all that. No one's being told "you cant sell in that neighborhood, there is already a rep"

Know what I mean?

I understand the contract... it makes sense that if you sign the dotted line, you ought to adhere to the agreement you made.
But why are these agreements in place?
And if a business is not required to sign such an agreement for whatever, reason; for those that are required (due to local or whoever THEIR dist'r is..) why is the person who didn't sign a 'bad guy'?
I'm sure laws are different country to country, and this is more or less what we're talking about.

Here in Montreal, we have more than one retailer/distributor of Creative products. And more than one retailer/distributor of EZ Flow (and OPI etc..)
Having said that, Montreal is just a city, never mind an entire country. And there are several distributors within the same city.
They are legit businesses, recognized distributors.
And they have healthy competition.

Who creates the rules/laws in the UK regarding distribution and 'territories'?
UK distributors themselves?
OR the parent companies from whom the products originate (say ex: the US regarding Creative?)
Does the US parent company say "Zappy can only sell to those countries, and zippy can only sell to these ones" ?

(am I a pest yet? LOL)

PS: so if the laws differ in Country A that doesn't set specific territories, and a consumer from Country B (who's dist's do have territories) wants to purchase from the Country A that doesn't have territories........ why is it wrong of the consumer OR of Country A? As per 'A', they're not breaking any rules, and as for the consumer; they didn't sign a dotted line outlining territories...

Some very interesting points & questions Victoria!

I too am very curious to know the answers!

Also wondering about the disparity in prices across the continents, how come there appear to be such huge differences, even taking into account the current weak US$?

 

[the-male-geek]

Hi Victoria

Where do I start - you've made so many points!!

Right OK, I'll have a go at answering them, but please bear in mind I'm not promoting myself as some kind of Distribution Oracle! My international knowledge is limited, so by all means if anyone else out there has more experience please jump in.......

The thing that confuses me most is this:

IF it's all done legally, and IF everything is above board....
Why shouldn't people buy outside their "territory" so to speak, if the pricing is better.

IF it's all done legally and above board then THE TECHNICIAN i.e. the purchaser has done nothing wrong - agreed. The point I will make again though is this:

Some of these technicians are still (and you'll have to trust me on this), contacting their local distributor and educator for (free) technical advice - when the s**t hits the fan. You see a lot of the companies selling the goods are not distributors in the true sense of the word. They are in fact wholesalers, and really have no passion or knowledge of the products they sell.

A distributor in the true sense means you provide more than just the product (whatever that may be). You also more than likely provide in house eductation, perhaps oversee other independant educators, organise displays for the brand at trade shows, demo evenings, the list goes on and on.

That's why I said in previous notes that people perhaps don't realise what they are missing out on by purchasing from someone else. Also all this background support costs money. It's not cheap to organise events these days, hense the frustration when someone wants all this support - but chooses to purchase elsewhere.

Let me simplify:
I live in a rinky-dink town, and the shopping here (for ANYTHING-children's clothing, food, furniture, nail product supplies, cat litter... whatever...) is abysmal for with minimal selection, and for another, waaaaaay overpriced in our few little stripmalls.
If I travel "outside my territory" by 20 or 30min by car, there are stores that have wider selections AND cheaper prices.
OR I can travel about 1-2hrs, and cross the US border and shop in Plattsburgh, New York. On my return home, I can declare my purchases at the customs counter, pay my duties and head on home again having saved a tonne of money.
OR place an order online, have it shipped properly, pay my customs and duties fees and again, save a tonne of money.
Should I not be allowed to shop there because it's not the town I live in?
Whether 10 miles or 10,000 miles... ?
No one is telling me I have no choice and HAVE to shop at Zellers because it's in my town, when Walmart is 20min away and much cheaper.

Why shouldn't I be allowed? It's my dollar, hard earned... If it's a legal product and all the appropriate taxes/duties etc are paid..... Why can't I have the freedom of deciding where my dollar goes?

You are allowed, of course you are. As long as you are doing all the stuff you say above with regards shipping/duty etc then you Victoria are legally doing absolutely nothing wrong.

I'm not trying to pick a fight, just trying to understand all this business. PLease, let's do be clear on that. I'm not playing devil's advocate or whatever.. I honestly want to understand.

Another example:
People are allowed to send their kids to whatever college or university they like (as they can afford).
Just look at Montreal McGill College, and Dawson.
We get students from all over the world, attending our schools.
And why shouldn't they be allowed? I bring up education because money is involved. Money is spent on our schools by students from abroad. Their spend money on : rent, groceries, travel etc....
No one is telling them they can't spend their money here, at our schools etc.
AND
People send their kids abroad to Harvard or Oxford or Cambridge Universities... when they have their own nearer to them.

See what I'm getting at?

I'm trying to understand.. truly.
But I don't, not one whit.
Competition is competition, and as long as it's "clean" and "legal" competition, what's the problem?

That's the point (in the UK anyway). It's not "clean" nor in some cases legal. Distributors here do have sole trading rights, and when these are infringed then it's not competition I'm afraid, it's a whole different ball game.

Manufacturers are having things produced in Mexico and China. Why? Because it's cheaper. Labour is cheaper. No one's telling them that they can't do it, and then sell their products here, or the UK or the US.

Can someone simplify the issue for me, or provide an example of some kind why it's not "cool" or "right" for a UK tech to shop abroad if everything is done legally and correctly?

There are many examples that have been made in the thread previously of why a UK tech should be purchasing from their authorised distributors.

thanks:hug:

(ps: cause maybe if it's simplified for slow wits like me, maybe there would be less arguments about it?)

You're certainly not a slow wit. You've made some very well structured points.

Cheers

Derek

 

[ValencianNails]

You see a lot of the companies selling the goods are not distributors in the true sense of the word. They are in fact wholesalers, and really have no passion or knowledge of the products they sell.

That's a very good point...
It's highly doubtful that you'll receive the same passion and product knowledge by buying OPI enamels from Sally's as you would from an OPI rep, and that's when the products are being sold in the same country!!!

 

[the-male-geek]

Ok, I understand part of that. An agreement/contract is just that, and to 'break' it is just plain wrong.

BUT why the agreement in the first place? This is a competitive world. If someone offers a better price, why shouldn't the consumer be allowed to take advantage OR if the seller is willing to take less profit by lowering their prices (and in the end, gain more clients, thereby increasing revenue) and why would it be "wrong" for the consumer?
It's very frowned upon, here on Geek.

The agreement is there in the first place to ensure that "someone" takes ownership of the brand in a specific country. Think about it this way:

In the UK we have Scratch magazine. Very popular amongst all of the UK techs on this forum. The technicians like to see glossy ads with all the latest products/retail items/seasonal offers. Who pays for these ads, CND, EzFlow etc?? No I'm afraid not, they don't.

It is in fact the distributor who has the rights to the brand in that partcular country who foots the bill.

Who pays for the trade shows, bringing the best eductors in the world to demo the latest techniques and applications? Yep that's right it's the distributor again - not the parent company.

Who looks after the education network, ensuring all educators are adaquately and regularly trained and assessed. Again it's the distributor.

The list goes on and on Victoria......

Why does the parent company not do it all on their own you may ask. Because it would be an almost impossible task. Each country has it's own ways of working, idiosyncracies etc and it would be impossible (not forgeting costly) to manage.


I sell Avon. Nothing stops another Avon rep from trying to snag one of my clients. Dog eat dog, and all that. No one's being told "you cant sell in that neighborhood, there is already a rep"

Know what I mean?

I understand the contract... it makes sense that if you sign the dotted line, you ought to adhere to the agreement you made.
But why are these agreements in place?
And if a business is not required to sign such an agreement for whatever, reason; for those that are required (due to local or whoever THEIR dist'r is..) why is the person who didn't sign a 'bad guy'?
I'm sure laws are different country to country, and this is more or less what we're talking about.

Here in Montreal, we have more than one retailer/distributor of Creative products. And more than one retailer/distributor of EZ Flow (and OPI etc..)
Having said that, Montreal is just a city, never mind an entire country. And there are several distributors within the same city.
They are legit businesses, recognized distributors.
And they have healthy competition.

Not sure about that, but remember a retailer is not a distributor. If you own a salon, you are the retailer.

Also I would second guess that in actual fact not all of these distributors you mention are in fact authorised. You'd be surprised......

Who creates the rules/laws in the UK regarding distribution and 'territories'?
UK distributors themselves?
OR the parent companies from whom the products originate (say ex: the US regarding Creative?)
Does the US parent company say "Zappy can only sell to those countries, and zippy can only sell to these ones" ?

I think I've covered that above......

(am I a pest yet? LOL)

Yes :lol:

PS: so if the laws differ in Country A that doesn't set specific territories, and a consumer from Country B (who's dist's do have territories) wants to purchase from the Country A that doesn't have territories........ why is it wrong of the consumer OR of Country A? As per 'A', they're not breaking any rules, and as for the consumer; they didn't sign a dotted line outlining territories...

There are not any distributors that don't have territories as far as I'm aware. Wholesalers yes, but even then they will have agreements with certain lines to not infringe others......

Hope this makes sense!

 

[1999judy]

I think a lot of this is about loyalty and trust (and maybe passion eh?)
You work with a brand and you are loyal to and trust them, for the education and products. You may well buy from several companies for different products but they are places you know are the real macoy.
You buy from your supplier because you KNOW that what you are buying is the real deal.
If you had any problem at all they would replace it and help you out, they would back you up and go out of their way to make you happy.
Do the other places do that?..I doubt it.
If you go to any show you will find that you can get some amazing bargains from the brand that you choose, usually they will let you know of offers throughout the year too.
It's all about being switched on and knowing when to stock your products instead of leaving things until you run out and buy them when you are desperate for products.
It's all about business sense.
So many people fail because they can produce some great work but have no idea how to run a business.
Sorry if that bugs anyone btw...I don't mean this in a way to offend anyone x

 

[Cathie!]

Of course it's about business sense and if I was a distributor I'd sure as hell be going to my parent company who contracted these other distributors who were selling in MY territory to tell them to stop selling outside their gaff.

It's not so simple as competition on the high street, these people are contractually given their turf and should stick to it, I guess that's where the trust and team playing element comes in.

 

[user 17597]

OK, i have just read this thread and i can honestly say it was like watching an epic movie or reading a great novel. I had so many emotions and feelings and ups and downs and back and forths, i am now tired. Why? I will try to explain and i have a few questions myself (sorry Derek )

OK here i go,

1) I agreed whole heartedly about supporting uk based distributors. If we all buy abroad then the industry will crash and burn.

2) Dangers of shipping over, last year i bought a toy for my son online from abroad and was informed it was a completely legit transaction...... until the toy came and the customs label stated it was a gift ?????. so im an unknowing lawbreaker :cry:.

3) If the purchaser has done everything legit, regarding shipping, duty and all the other stuff, and purchased from a legit distributor then why shouldnt she/he ?

5) But what if more and more people shopped abroad then if my computor crashed and the phone blew up, there would be no uk distributors to buy from!

6) But why should i pay through the nose for a product that i can get half the price including all the extra fees that is legal, why should us as the customer always be ripped off. Why is it so much dearer? I have the right and freedom of choice to choose whats best for me dont I ? Even the devil cant and god cant play with freewill!!!

7) Why are the distrubutors made responsible for so much of the promotional work for the parent company, if all the distrubutors said no then the parent company would have to pull their finger out and take some of the responsibility for the promotion and customer service, This should be regulated............. I feel a union forming :wink2:.

8) I have just realised that i dont buy from a distrubutor, i buy from a wholesaler who ive just found out from this thread dont care about me and dont know who i am :cry::cry::cry:.


Ok i think thats it. XXX

 

[slhallford]

A distributor in the true sense means you provide more than just the product (whatever that may be). You also more than likely provide in house eductation, perhaps oversee other independant educators, organise displays for the brand at trade shows, demo evenings, the list goes on and on.

That's why I said in previous notes that people perhaps don't realise what they are missing out on by purchasing from someone else. Also all this background support costs money. It's not cheap to organise events these days, hense the frustration when someone wants all this support - but chooses to purchase elsewhere.

YES YES YES. This is exactly the situation we run up against. At our last show we represented Cuccio, Earthly Body, Medicool, and we worked jointly with OPI, Estelina's & Cacie. Every one of our employees is a licensed technician. Because of that, we get a lot of calls for help from individuals who neither buy from us nor plan to EVER purchase from us. We work with the local schools and accept externs so they have the opportunity to see the profession from both viewpoints. We offer manufacturer training from Medicool, OPI, Cacie & Creative. We distribute nail products because we love the industry.

S

 

[the-male-geek]

Here goes again, please give me a nudge when you get bored!

OK, i have just read this thread and i can honestly say it was like watching an epic movie or reading a great novel. I had so many emotions and feelings and ups and downs and back and forths, i am now tired. Why? I will try to explain and i have a few questions myself (sorry Derek )

OK here i go,

1) I agreed whole heartedly about supporting uk based distributors. If we all buy abroad then the industry will crash and burn.

2) Dangers of shipping over, last year i bought a toy for my son online from abroad and was informed it was a completely legit transaction...... until the toy came and the customs label stated it was a gift ?????. so im an unknowing lawbreaker :cry:.

3) If the purchaser has done everything legit, regarding shipping, duty and all the other stuff, and purchased from a legit distributor then why shouldnt she/he ?
They are quite entitled to, but there are other factors surrounding the morality of still expecting the same support as the technician who develops a relationship with their UK Distributor and Educator. If all they are interested in is price then cool, go for it, but isn't far more satisfying knowing you have a team of experts in your chosen brand supporting you?

5) But what if more and more people shopped abroad then if my computor crashed and the phone blew up, there would be no uk distributors to buy from!

6) But why should i pay through the nose for a product that i can get half the price including all the extra fees that is legal, why should us as the customer always be ripped off. Why is it so much dearer? I have the right and freedom of choice to choose whats best for me dont I ? Even the devil cant and god cant play with freewill!!!
It's unlikely that you will get it at half the price if it is all done above board. Remember that strictly speaking you should be paying import duty and VAT, so the "bargain" price soon rockets up! I'll grant you that you will more than likely make a saving.
No-one is suggesting you have no rights or freedom of choice, that's not really what the argument is based around. It's whether you want to risk losing all the support and advice that come with purchasing at home.


7) Why are the distrubutors made responsible for so much of the promotional work for the parent company, if all the distrubutors said no then the parent company would have to pull their finger out and take some of the responsibility for the promotion and customer service, This should be regulated............. I feel a union forming :wink2:.
That's not how the industry works I'm afraid. EzFlow, CND, Young Nails products are all made by manufacturers. They are not equipped to distribute worldwide, market worldwide, nor provide technical support wordwide. They don't have the infrastructure, nor are they likely to ever have.
In most industies manufacturers appoint agents/distributors/subsiduary companies to look after individual or collective markets - UK, Europe, wherever.
It's difficult for a manufacturer to look after worldwide marketing. They would require people on the ground in EVERY nation they traded in, to gauge how the market was in each individual country. Every country is different, and something that works in one, may not in another. That's where a distrbutor comes in.
The distributor will have a close working relationship with the parent company, so it's unfair to suggest they do not take any responsibility.

8) I have just realised that i dont buy from a distrubutor, i buy from a wholesaler who ive just found out from this thread dont care about me and dont know who i am :cry::cry::cry:.
Only one person can change that


Ok i think thats it. XXX

 

[VHunter]

WOW lots of food for thought.
THANKS SO MUCH for the detailed responses.
(PS just re-read this and realized it's long in the tooth, SORRY in advance for my novella, but please bear with me)

Now, let's see if I get this straight:
Parent Company (head office internationally), then Distributors and Wholesalers, then Retailers
The Parent Company dictates the territories to the Distributors and Wholesalers?

The businesses I'm referring to here in Montreal, well one in particular:
They teach EZ Flow, BUT also distribute OPI & Creative and a few other brands.
So what does that make them? Wholesaler or Distributor?
Then another I know of teaches Creative, but also distributes multiple brands IN THE SAME CITY.

As for Distributors giving support to techs that aren't clients/customers.. why do they do that?
It's a simple matter of looking into a computer to see whether or not the client has trained with them or purchases from them regularly, before giving information. Or give clients a pin number or something that they have to recite when they call or whatever? Then if the person calling is clueless... then they're clearly not a client.

And for Parent Companies... and territories? Would it not be simple to place a "ghost order" that's going to a territory outside that Distributors/Wholesaler's territory assigned to them and if that company processes it ....... BUSTED..... don't sell to them anymore?

A distributor in the true sense means you provide more than just the product (whatever that may be). You also more than likely provide in house eductation, perhaps oversee other independant educators, organise displays for the brand at trade shows, demo evenings, the list goes on and on.

That's why I said in previous notes that people perhaps don't realise what they are missing out on by purchasing from someone else. Also all this background support costs money. It's not cheap to organise events these days, hense the frustration when someone wants all this support - but chooses to purchase elsewhere.

I recently went to a local dist's 'show' at a hotel. The demonstrations were not at all what was expected, I was VERY dissappointed. The "sale" was an abysmal joke. No savings, that I could see. Minimal staff around to answer questions, and barely having the time to do so.
I can tell you I will never go to another. "Dissappointed" does not begin to describe how I felt that day (and a few other techs that I know agree with me). And this shoddy event is the reason that prices are so high?
The ONLY thing I buy from this distributor is my gel. That's IT.
Everything else is from elsewhere. Their prices for things like abrasives and nail forms, and tips are 2 to 5x the cost of some other places.
I'd have to be CRAZY to shop with them.

Now, I'm sure there are shows that have multiple distributors that are of a much higher caliber.
I know there's one that comes to montreal and I'll head to the next one.
I also know that we techs have to pay to get through the door. This must pay for some portion of the event.

As for the cost of advertising, well... advertising garners clients, thereby garnering revenue from said clients. The more satisfied clients are with prices/services, client base will increase and so will repeat sales.....
So, that ought to cover advertising to some degree.

I realize that there must be a markup. To cover expenses and to have a revenue. But how high must that markup be? And why is there such a HUGE difference internationally, in terms of cost of the SAME product? I know of the VAT and import taxes and customs and duties. But as some have said, EVEN when things are done by the book while there are still big savings sometimes, to shop abroad.
Why?
IF it's the same parent companies, and they are selling for the same price to all their Distributors...


I guess it's the differences in prices, across the board that are the cause of all these frustrations on both sides: Distributors and Technicians.


On another note, Morals and Loyalty are often brought up in these debates... WHY?
If things are done by the book, (never mind territories, I mean shipping and such) why is it immoral or unloyal to shop elsewhere? This is a Business, not a Marriage or Friendship.
While we have great fun as Nail techs, it's still a job/career/business. I'm sure a great many would love the life of leisure of the millionaires.

YES we should be passionate about our products of choice and all that, BUT it's still a "Business" and Business sense dictates to make wise choices with your expenses to have higher revenues (legally of course).

The distributor is not concerned with my private life and personal expenses. They want my dollar, that's it. Yes they want me to suceed in so far as I continue to purchase products from them, hence the training. Ahhh but here's the crunch: I paid for my training. It was NOT for free and nor was it cheap. So, the distributor benefited from my training directly. But beyond that, .. they don't care that I have schooling to pay for my children and property taxes and a new roof to put on my house. My problem, right?
Ok, so how do I manage the budget? By comparison shopping as I would with peanut butter or a car. (just like manufacturers have stuff made in china, cheaper labour. No "LoyaltY' to their countrymen or their needs for employment. It's "business".)

So, why does this mean my morals come into question? Or loyalty?
I owe my husband and my best friends, my loyalty.
How is making a wise business decision, that is legal, 'immoral'?
My arrangement with my distributor is purely Business.
Too confuse it and make it personal.... I don't think that's wise.


Ok, off my soap box.
I'm beginning to understand a lot better what I've been reading all these months...
But clearly, everyone has varying opinions WHICH makes the world go around :hug:

Late at night, past my bedtime and I probably rambled on much longer than I needed to.
SORRY:o
Just been watching this subject come and go over and over for some time.. and finally decided to jump in, figure it all out, and question what didn't make sense to me.

THANKS again for all the "meaty" replies.
MUCH appreciated!!!

:hug::hug::hug:

 

[sc in canada]

speaking in reguards to Canada, many manufacturers set how much their product will sell for. If you call one distributor in western canada and ask them what the price of a 1/2oz NSI Builder gel is they will tell you it "x" amount if you call a distributor in eastern canada and ask the same question you will be quoted the same price. So please understand that the distributors don't just make up whatever price they feel like, they are told what price to retail that manufacturers products at. I'm not speaking for every product or every manufacturer but I know that most companies operate this way.

 

[wg19]

speaking in reguards to Canada, many manufacturers set how much their product will sell for. If you call one distributor in western canada and ask them what the price of a 1/2oz NSI Builder gel is they will tell you it "x" amount if you call a distributor in eastern canada and ask the same question you will be quoted the same price. So please understand that the distributors don't just make up whatever price they feel like, they are told what price to retail that manufacturers products at. I'm not speaking for every product or every manufacturer but I know that most companies operate this way.

That is probably true for most professional products l & p/gel etc within the same country. However the question raised time & again is the difference in prices between countries. (I think!)

Products such as tips, files, adhesives, cleansers, tools of the trade etc come at varying prices & people shop around to save money (unless of course they are hugely sucessful, price is not relevant & they don't want to "waste time" buying from different suppliers). Yet this does not appear to be deemed as "disloyal"?

While I'm here, may I ask what the "technical support" is that large brands offer? (over & above recommending which of their products & training to purchase)

 

[Hope]

While I'm here, may I ask what the "technical support" is that large brands offer? (over & above recommending which of their products & training to purchase)

I can only answer this from my own experience (of course!!) But the company that I chose to train with and purchase my products from offers me continuous technical support whenever I need it, they have members of staff at HO who I can contact at any time to ask specific Q of, and have them answered, my educator is also always at the end of the phone/email and will help me out whenever I have a Q. So to me that is what technical support refers to.

 

[VHunter]

That is probably true for most professional products l & p/gel etc within the same country. However the question raised time & again is the difference in prices between countries. (I think!)

Products such as tips, files, adhesives, cleansers, tools of the trade etc come at varying prices & people shop around to save money (unless of course they are hugely sucessful, price is not relevant & they don't want to "waste time" buying from different suppliers). Yet this does not appear to be deemed as "disloyal"?

Yes, the price seems to be roughly the same for L&P or Gel.
But where abrasives and other such items, there seems to be large differences.
Also, YES
Why so different country to country if it's the Parent Company that dictates the retail price?

Because, this is what he hullaballoo is about: techs can find products abroad for less than what they pay for at home.

 

[grafxgal]

Why so different country to country if it's the Parent Company that dictates the retail price?

Because, this is what he hullaballoo is about: techs can find products abroad for less than what they pay for at home.

Because every country has differnet amounts to pay ontop of what the parent company sells it to the distributors for.

Let's say that a distributor here is bring in l&p from the US, first there is the conversion rate, then there is the shipping (getting it here), then there is the import tax, then the gst (vat in the UK), then there is the customs fee(not sure if there is or not but you know the government), the shipping companies handling fee and that's just to get it into the country. There are probably more than that, but this is just an example of what can be charged just to bring something in.
Whereas a tech bringing it into the country just has to pay the conversion, and shipping, they don't have to deal with all the other b/s.

 

[VHunter]

Forgot this one LOL

6) But why should i pay through the nose for a product that i can get half the price including all the extra fees that is legal, why should us as the customer always be ripped off. Why is it so much dearer? I have the right and freedom of choice to choose whats best for me dont I ? Even the devil cant and god cant play with freewill!!!
It's unlikely that you will get it at half the price if it is all done above board. Remember that strictly speaking you should be paying import duty and VAT, so the "bargain" price soon rockets up! I'll grant you that you will more than likely make a saving.
No-one is suggesting you have no rights or freedom of choice, that's not really what the argument is based around. It's whether you want to risk losing all the support and advice that come with purchasing at home.

I'll give you a perfect example.
My local Distributor charges a minimum of 25$ for box of 250ct of nail tips. That's MINIMUM.. the prices goes up from there.

If I shop in the US, with Nailite.. I get the SAME tips (yes SAME since I accidentally discovered that Nailite supplies my local dist with many things and since the obviously buy in bulk, they are likely getting stuff for much cheaper than I do) for Minimum of 9$ for a 500ct with box incl. So that translates to $4.50 for the same product versus $25.00. One quarter of the price.
Now, when I place my orders, I choose the cheapest form of shipping, since I buy in advance (takes 2wks to get here).
I always buy a good sized order of things I regularly use so that I'm not paying shipping over and over and over... And my flammables, I wait until I have several 'flammables' to order, as they have to be shipped a special way.
Even after paying shipping, duties, customs, taxes etc....
That box of tips, that is $4.50... at MOST it's probably costing me 7$ (remembering that I place pretty good sized orders, so shipping is divided...)
So, $25.00 - $7.00 = $18

HOLY CRAP:!: That is HUGE savings. (ESPECIALLY now with the strength of the Canadian dollar, and the UK dollar is about double the value of our own... so what does that mean to you?) I could get THREE AND A HALF boxes of tips for that price. OR buy something else with the money (maybe some socks or shoes for my girls?)
And that savings is on only ONE item from my order. No need for me to go down the list, obviously. If I went down the list and wrote up a mock order and did price comparison between local Distributor and Nailite, it would blow your mind.
At the end of the year, that savings adds up.
Now, I don't use tips anymore, so it's hard for me to figure what it would be at the end of the year, but those that still use tips regularly... you figure it out.
And Nailite has always been very informative and helpful anytime I needed assistance (not all the receptionists can answer your questions, but there is always someone else they can transfer you to that can).
Granted they don't offer training BUT those that order from them are TRAINED technicians and should know what they're doing.

Nailite DOES advertise in trade magazines- Nails & Nailpro, full page spreads in many cases. They also have the cost of maintaining a website. Whether or not they are at tradeshows, I don't know.
They keep packaging simple, that also cuts on costs. Fancier packaging makes for higher prices.
Personally, I'd rather pay for product versus package. I really don't care what the package looks like.
Their advertising is simple: black and white, like their site and packaging.

(Please note: not trying to push Nailite, just drawing comparisons and so I'm drawing from my own experience. There is also Premier Nail Source, etc etc)

YES for some things, the savings aren't the same..... do the math, and for some things it's worth it.. for others, you arrive about the same or pay more.
Example: don't buy an e-file. PARTICULARLY if something goes wonky with it, all the hassle of returning it and everything else.
But for abrasives, forms, wipes and that sort of thing......

GRANTED, it's different for the UK than for Canada.
As for Canadian Free Trade, some products whether made in the US or not will still have a tax on them due to what they are. PLUS the applicable Provincial taxes are applied at the border as it comes in.
In fact, we don't have free trade with China/Asia, and so, we don't pay customs or duties taxes with products from there, no matter what they are. Interesting, isn't it?
Personally, I feel that "Free Trade" is a load of @#$%^&* (please pardon my french LOL)

Is it a hassle to calculate the time required to ship? Hmmmm depends on how you look at it.
I do one order, figure it all out in advance. I sit down once, versus several times. If I did it locally, I'd probably be doing a lot of ordering last minute and paying more shipping since it would be multiple orders, so that would add to the cost of the products, increasing my expense even further.

As for the support locally; it depends on who I get on the phone. Not all are 'experienced' and sometimes the answers... well, even I know they're wrong and make no sense.

I think ideally, something on an international level needs to be done.
To unite Techs and Distributors and Educators.
I think this would rid us NSS, of territory poaching, of shoddy educations leaving techs wanting more....
How feasible is it? ummmmmmm not likely, due to the costs and time involved and complexities of the differences between countries.
Just look at how diverse the types of education are?
At least when someone chooses to become a doctor.. for the "most part", education is the same.
But for nail techs....... there are a lot of holes and poor education out there.

Ok, there's my novella LOL
sorry again.
I have my thinking cap on, and that's a dangerous thing.:lol::lol:

 

[VHunter]

Because every country has differnet amounts to pay ontop of what the parent company sells it to the distributors for.

Let's say that a distributor here is bring in l&p from the US, first there is the conversion rate, then there is the shipping (getting it here), then there is the import tax, then the gst (vat in the UK), then there is the customs fee(not sure if there is or not but you know the government), the shipping companies handling fee and that's just to get it into the country. There are probably more than that, but this is just an example of what can be charged just to bring something in.
Whereas a tech bringing it into the country just has to pay the conversion, and shipping, they don't have to deal with all the other b/s.

Yup, I understand all that. I pay the customs and duties, and imports and other various taxes, and still save money.
BUT "bringing it in" versus ordering online or by phone are very different things. Most wouldn't be "bringing it in".

 

[the-male-geek]

Forgot this one LOL



I'll give you a perfect example.
My local Distributor charges a minimum of 25$ for box of 250ct of nail tips. That's MINIMUM.. the prices goes up from there.

If I shop in the US, with Nailite.. I get the SAME tips (yes SAME since I accidentally discovered that Nailite supplies my local dist with many things and since the obviously buy in bulk, they are likely getting stuff for much cheaper than I do) for Minimum of 9$ for a 500ct with box incl. So that translates to $4.50 for the same product versus $25.00. One quarter of the price.
Now, when I place my orders, I choose the cheapest form of shipping, since I buy in advance (takes 2wks to get here).
I always buy a good sized order of things I regularly use so that I'm not paying shipping over and over and over... And my flammables, I wait until I have several 'flammables' to order, as they have to be shipped a special way.
Even after paying shipping, duties, customs, taxes etc....
That box of tips, that is $4.50... at MOST it's probably costing me 7$ (remembering that I place pretty good sized orders, so shipping is divided...)
So, $25.00 - $7.00 = $18

HOLY CRAP:!: That is HUGE savings. (ESPECIALLY now with the strength of the Canadian dollar, and the UK dollar is about double the value of our own... so what does that mean to you?) I could get THREE AND A HALF boxes of tips for that price. OR buy something else with the money (maybe some socks or shoes for my girls?)
And that savings is on only ONE item from my order. No need for me to go down the list, obviously. If I went down the list and wrote up a mock order and did price comparison between local Distributor and Nailite, it would blow your mind.
At the end of the year, that savings adds up.
Now, I don't use tips anymore, so it's hard for me to figure what it would be at the end of the year, but those that still use tips regularly... you figure it out.
And Nailite has always been very informative and helpful anytime I needed assistance (not all the receptionists can answer your questions, but there is always someone else they can transfer you to that can).
Granted they don't offer training BUT those that order from them are TRAINED technicians and should know what they're doing.

Nailite DOES advertise in trade magazines- Nails & Nailpro, full page spreads in many cases. They also have the cost of maintaining a website. Whether or not they are at tradeshows, I don't know.
They keep packaging simple, that also cuts on costs. Fancier packaging makes for higher prices.
Personally, I'd rather pay for product versus package. I really don't care what the package looks like.
Their advertising is simple: black and white, like their site and packaging.

(Please note: not trying to push Nailite, just drawing comparisons and so I'm drawing from my own experience. There is also Premier Nail Source, etc etc)

YES for some things, the savings aren't the same..... do the math, and for some things it's worth it.. for others, you arrive about the same or pay more.
Example: don't buy an e-file. PARTICULARLY if something goes wonky with it, all the hassle of returning it and everything else.
But for abrasives, forms, wipes and that sort of thing......

GRANTED, it's different for the UK than for Canada.
As for Canadian Free Trade, some products whether made in the US or not will still have a tax on them due to what they are. PLUS the applicable Provincial taxes are applied at the border as it comes in.
In fact, we don't have free trade with China/Asia, and so, we don't pay customs or duties taxes with products from there, no matter what they are. Interesting, isn't it?
Personally, I feel that "Free Trade" is a load of @#$%^&* (please pardon my french LOL)

Is it a hassle to calculate the time required to ship? Hmmmm depends on how you look at it.
I do one order, figure it all out in advance. I sit down once, versus several times. If I did it locally, I'd probably be doing a lot of ordering last minute and paying more shipping since it would be multiple orders, so that would add to the cost of the products, increasing my expense even further.

As for the support locally; it depends on who I get on the phone. Not all are 'experienced' and sometimes the answers... well, even I know they're wrong and make no sense.

I think ideally, something on an international level needs to be done.
To unite Techs and Distributors and Educators.
I think this would rid us NSS, of territory poaching, of shoddy educations leaving techs wanting more....
How feasible is it? ummmmmmm not likely, due to the costs and time involved and complexities of the differences between countries.
Just look at how diverse the types of education are?
At least when someone chooses to become a doctor.. for the "most part", education is the same.
But for nail techs....... there are a lot of holes and poor education out there.

Ok, there's my novella LOL
sorry again.
I have my thinking cap on, and that's a dangerous thing.:lol::lol:

Again Victoria, some very valid points.

I think really, it all comes down to the individual - and the country they reside in as to what method of purchasing suits best.

This has been a very interesting debate, and has certainly opened my eyes (and hopefully others), to some of the challenges facing both technicians and distributors.

Cheers

Derek