Fresh Monomer Every Time?

[yeahyeah]

I strongly disagree! ! ! !
While I'm no chemist and it's certainly not my strong suit, I do have some common sense.
If certain ingredients 'evaporate' from the liquid, and into the air; then they are no longer in the liquid OR their quantity within the liquid is at least reduced.
It's the LIQUID that you use and soak up with your brush, to mix your beads, NOT THE AIR. I don't see anyone waving their brushes in the air.

So, if the chemical composition is changed by the evaporation such that it contains LESS of a certain ingredient THEN it's not the composition intended by the manufacturer for use. So therefor, it's not at it's "best" so to speak.

I'm not saying one way or the other is best.... BUT let's have some common sense.

web definition:
Evaporation

The process by which any substance is converted from a liquid state into, and carried off in, vapor; as, the evaporation of water, of ether, of camphor.


Did you see the word CONVERTED?
Converted means:
changed in form or function etc
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/converted
convert - change from one system to another or to a new plan or policy; "We converted from 220 to 110 Volt"
convert - change the nature, purpose, or function of something; "convert lead into gold"; "convert hotels into jails"; "convert slaves to laborers"
convert - change: exchange or replace with another, usually of the same kind or category; "Could you convert my dollars into pounds?"; "He changed his name"; "convert centimeters into inches"; "convert holdings into shares"
convert - cause to adopt a new or different faith; "The missionaries converted the Indian population"
convert - score an extra point or points after touchdown by kicking the ball through the uprights or advancing the ball into the end zone; "Smith converted and his team won"
SO IF SOMETHING EVAPORATES, it is CHANGED.

I have taken chemistry classes at university level, and it has always been an interest of mine, i would definitely consider it one of my strong suits.. i also have plenty of common sense... so i know the following to be FACT:

evaporation is a PHYSICAL change, not a CHEMICAL change. it does NOT chemically alter or convert a substance, only changes its physical state (ie. water changing to steam or ice). our monomer (which is acutally a misleading name since a "monomer" in chemistry is a SINGLE molecular substance, which is technically only one part of 'our' monomer) is considered a solution (a homogeneous mixture in chemistry)- an aggregate of two or more substances that are NOT chemically united and exist in NO fixed proportion to each other... if you care to disagree with this, check the MSDS of any acrylic liquid, its right on there A mixture can be separated by a physical change but it does not chemically alter it in any way. if the mixture is in a closed container evaporation does not escape the container and therefore returns to the original mixture in the form of condensation...thus returning the mixture to its original physical state. Think of it like a bottle of iced tea (a perfect example of a homogeneous mixture in chemistry speak) thats half full, if you put the lid on and let it sit there for awhile you will notice tiny droplets forming inside the bottle on the top half. this is from parts of the solution that have evaporated and collected as condensation. they return to the solution and its still tea. For the solution to be changed by evaporation we would need there to be a reaction of some sort within the evaporated part of the mixture, this can not happen to monomer in a closed container (at least not under normal circumstances, like it being stored in your manicure table), otherwise the product would not be storable... and therefore we couldnt buy it.

The addition of negative catalysts (or inhibitors) to the solution does not make a shred of difference; negative catalysts are added to nearly everything around us from your bread in the cabinet to your air conditioner to the processor thats powering this computer... they also remain completely unchanged during evaporation.

This is all VERY basic chemistry, but i believe we should have a strong knowledge of chemistry in our profession. it is not enough to just read what the experts tell us and blindly believe it, we should take their expert opions and then ***** the facts on our own before coming to a conclusion... a nail technician knows better than anyone how easily information can be misinterpreted as it moves down the line.

To answer some of your other questions: the monomer pump is designed so that monomer that is pumped up and out of the container does NOT return to the container (sure, some will remain in the "straw" part of the pump, but it is never exposed to the outside of the pump and therefore is never contaminated). you can test this for yourself (and i have) by putting a very small amount of liquid in the bottom of the bottle and pumping it up... pump it again and again and again and again and the liquid does not return to the bottom of the bottle. it will stay in the dish, and if the bottle was full the dish would eventually overflow -- if you did not use your brush to soak each pump up.

Also, its true (quite obviously) if the pump does not seal correctly or leaks for some reason, you should not store your monomer in it, this is why its best not to buy a cheap pump, or if yours becomes worn out or broken, stop using it. But this goes for any container you store your monomer in, not just pumps. A quality pump is designed to seal as well as a screw on lid (it does scew on afterall), the only time it "opens" is when its pressed down to suck monomer up. This might not have been true for pumps years ago (i wouldnt know) but i am speaking for my own product and experience, and the opinion of several experts that I know.

As for the monomer separating... as i said before, monomer is a homogeneous solution... unlike a cocktail which is a heterogenous solution. homogenous solutions do not "separate" upon standing. this is why you dont see "shake before using" on your bottle of monomer. This is also why if you use a pipette to transfer monomer from the factory container to your dappen dish, it is not "weak" if you pipe it off the top of the container.

 

[The Geek]

I think you're confusing a few points here. Monomer is referring to unpolymerised EMA which when curing forms a polymer.

Monomer does not evaporate as you suggest. You can test this yourself by leaving a small amount of monomer out in a dish overnight and reviewing the contents the next morning. You can perform this test with virtually any product. Some products contain more volatile substances than others - those volatile substances will evaporate before the less volatile substance will.

Evaporation does not cause polymerisation as suggested either, though it throws off product composition. I do think though that the evaporation issue is being wayyyy overplayed here. Bottom line is if your pump filled with Acetone or Scrubfresh (both highly volatile) isn't evaporating, then I doubt your monomer would.

The key point is whether the pump will allow contaminants back into the belly or not. I know that some used to but I wouldn't be presumptuous enough to assert that ALL still do but nor would I bother with the risk. Monomer while expensive is a fraction of the cost of my time fixing even 1 nail from contamination.

 

[angel fingers]

the pumps that are recommended for use with monomer have non return valves to prevent liquid flowing back into the bottle.

there are other pump bottles that do not have them though.

 

[yeahyeah]

Spot on research

Monomer does indeed contaminate and 'go off' easily

I've seen with my own eyes the result of a shipment left to sit on the dock in the sun... the entire batch had turned into a solid 'jelly' in the bottles...

Monomers are a very energetic molecule, they are so charged that they actually are constantly moving in the container and 'push away' from each other - the moment a reaction starts they grab ahold of each other one by one forming into millions of molecules in a long chain (solid)

In the container the inhibitors keep them from being able to start grabbing each other. These inhibitors only work for an average of 18 months (in a sealed container)

Opening the bottle and exposing oxygen will start to degrade them and shorten their protective nature.

Any storage container once opened will lead to the eventual breakdown and partial polymerisation and loss of energy from the molecule.

Never should old monomer be added to fresh monomer, it will already have an altered structure and will instantly weaken the fresh product... This is why Doug recommends only ever dispensing a small amount at a time from a small (eg 4 oz) container. With your bulk bottles only used to refill the small container when empty.

even the best pumps I've come across generally allow some form of forward and backward flow, which can cause contamination and breakdown of the monomer stored. If it works for you that's great, but dispensing to a small dappen dish ensures one less thing that 'could' cause you service breakdown.

Monomer evaporation with oxygen has a two fold problem -
one, the evaporation does indeed alter the formula, there is far more than just one type of monomer in the liquid, and different ingredients evaporate at different levels
two, oxygen and other contaminants degrade the formula by bonding themselves in and creating new molecules and damage to the original chemicals...

hope that all helps a little...

oops i didnt see your post before my last one the reason your monomer went "jelly" in the sun is becuase just like monomer contains inhibitors to slow down chemical reactions, polymer powder carries initiators which activate a chemical reaction when introduced to the monomer. However, a natural initiator of the polymerizaion process is heat. this is why our product sets up quicker when its warm in the salon, and also why it sets up faster sculpting on a human (body heat) as opposed to a trainer hand. your monomer would never become hard, solid piece of acrylic without being introduced to a polymer agent like your powder, but it can become a "syrup".

And as far as oxygen "degrading" the molecules, this is completely untrue based on chemistry (remember, chemistry is an exact science, it doesnt make an exception for nail products). What you are referring to is known as redox, or a reduction oxidation reaction so, the molecules are not "degraded". in chemistry, there has to be a decomposition reaction in order for a substance to truley be degraded, and it takes hundreds of years for monomers to even begin degrading (this is why we cant just go dump our monomer waste into the river). In order for the monomers to acutally start grabbing onto eachother and forming into a chain, the polymerization process needs to be initiated, and in order for this to happen a chemical reaction needs to be initiated. This too is very basic chemistry, we should ALL know this stuff already if we are calling ourselves professional nail technicians!!!!!!!!!!

 

[yeahyeah]

I think you're confusing a few points here. Monomer is referring to unpolymerised EMA which when curing forms a polymer.

Monomer does not evaporate as you suggest. You can test this yourself by leaving a small amount of monomer out in a dish overnight and reviewing the contents the next morning. You can perform this test with virtually any product. Some products contain more volatile substances than others - those volatile substances will evaporate before the less volatile substance will.QUOTE]

ALL monomers evaporate, this is college chemistry 101. whether we are referring to EMA, MMA, acrylamide, phenylethene, ethane... like i said in my previous post, chemsitry is an exact science, it doesnt make an exception for nail products. Ethyl Methacrylate is infact considered a volatile substance by the ACS.

 

[yeahyeah]

the pumps that are recommended for use with monomer have non return valves to prevent liquid flowing back into the bottle.

there are other pump bottles that do not have them though.

this is very true, but until CND sells it there will be tons of haters

 

[The Geek]

ALL monomers evaporate, this is college chemistry 101. whether we are referring to EMA, MMA, acrylamide, phenylethene, ethane... like i said in my previous post, chemsitry is an exact science, it doesnt make an exception for nail products. Ethyl Methacrylate is infact considered a volatile substance by the ACS.

Obviously, but its college 101 to understand that a bottle of Brand A monomer contains components of varying volatility and thus, evaporation will alter the composition of the product (even if only slight). Regardless, all this hub bub about evaporation is "contaminating" the issue

 

[The Geek]

this is very true, but until CND sells it there will be tons of haters

I see now. The ole "CND" last resort point. Really sad when I see people resort to brand bashing like that.

I'm about as CND as you can get. I don't use pumps nor do I sell them, but thought I was fairly neutral as I tried to participate in a healthy discussion about the issue. But now see it was really a waste time. After all, if you can't discuss - just bash.

meh.

 

[yeahyeah]

Obviously, but its college 101 to understand that a bottle of Brand A monomer contains components of varying volatility and thus, evaporation will alter the composition of the product (even if only slight). Regardless, all this hub bub about evaporation is "contaminating" the issue

I agree this thread got way off course but if its ended with false information then whats the point of this forum?

and yes a solution can be separated by evaporation (i did state this is in a previous post) HOWEVER, if the evaporation occurs in a closed container, the solution will return to its original state as soon as the product condensates, this could happen inside a factory bottle of monomer as well, and makes no difference whatsoever, which is the point i was trying to make. even so, the "composition" of the product can not be changed by evaporation becuase it is not a chemical compound it is a SOLUTION, which as i also stated in a previous post, is an aggregate of two or more substances that are NOT chemically united and exist in NO fixed proportion to each other (therefore, monomer can NOT go "weak" when it evaporates, you will just have less of it.) and this is true not only of "monomer" in the actual chemistry definition of monomer, its true of monomer in terms of what it means to a nail technician (acrylic liquid: a combination of monomer(s) and polymerization inhibitors)

 

[yeahyeah]

I see now. The ole "CND" last resort point. Really sad when I see people resort to brand bashing like that.

I'm about as CND as you can get. I don't use pumps nor do I sell them, but thought I was fairly neutral as I tried to participate in a healthy discussion about the issue. But now see it was really a waste time. After all, if you can't discuss - just bash.

meh.

I am certainly not brand bashing, nor would i... as i said in yet another previous post that obviously wasnt read, I was educated in a CND school and currently WORK in another CND school. WHY in the world would i bash CND???? I simply believe there are a lot of technicians that stand behind their prodcuts so firmly they refuse to accept the notion that there might be a better way of doing something until CND endorses it. Theres nothing wrong with that from a business perspective (what company wouldnt want their customers to view them this way) and theres certainly a reason they have such a loyal following, i just do not deny the fact that there are other companies with equally as innovative and effective products and procedures.


EDIT-- if i am bashing anything i am bashing the notion that technicians will do things a certain way (or refuse do things a certain way) if CND does not recommend it. NSI recommends it, so does that mean they're wrong?? I am not content in my profession life to sit back and do things only one way and i certainly wouldnt* NOT try something that i think sounds like a fabulous idea because a company (any company) who doesnt sell the product doesnt recommend it (why would a company recommend a product a rival comany sells anyway )

 

[VHunter]

yeahyeah, I stopped reading your posts when you stopped using paragraphs. No offense, but staring at a pc is hard enough on the eyes without adding that aggravation.

For everyone:
I have a brilliant idea. HOW ABOUT we all ask Mr. Doug Schoon whom I'm sure we ALL agree is the authority on the subject?
None of us can dispute him, in this regard.

 

[yeahyeah]

Sorry! I did use paragraphs i just didn't space between. My apologies.

All have been edited with spaces, hope that helps

 

[yeahyeah]

yeahyeah, I stopped reading your posts when you stopped using paragraphs. No offense, but staring at a pc is hard enough on the eyes without adding that aggravation.

For everyone:
I have a brilliant idea. HOW ABOUT we all ask Mr. Doug Schoon whom I'm sure we ALL agree is the authority on the subject?
None of us can dispute him, in this regard.

This could not hurt although geeg has already stated Doug schoons stance. personally I will still base my own decision on what i already know as scientific fact and my experience using a monomer pump problem-free for the past two years

I hope this thread has at least helped someone! Who would've thought such a little piece of equipment could be so technical or spur so much debate? It's such a pet peeve of mine when opinion is misinterpreted as fact and that happens far too easily on the internet!

 

[wonderwoman]

oh dear...wish i hadnt suggested it now!! but to be fair, i think people should try out what is best for them. i like to try out different things & find sometimes the most conventional way may not suit everyone. I have tried to create a simplified analogy in chemistry simplified as i have taught this..
pumps, bottles, containers, violate liquids/ borderline gases will always react with oxygen, no matter what it is stored in.

think of a nail glue, will dry out within 10secs...why because the oxygen is the key to it, why doesnt it harden when it is in its foil packaging...why does the tip harden?! the answer is that the chemical compostition has been preserved in a air tight vacum that will be released as and when it is used every time.

just think that with organic chemstry the bonds are greedy as they wanna get attached to everything bigger, (carbon/hydrogen/oxygen etc) that can gives it that extra bond!!
But please feel free to ask DS for everyone that is confused, you'll get the jist of it! Its GCSE stuff! easy peasy!
HTHs xoxo

 

[The Geek]

I am certainly not brand bashing, nor would i...

Fair dues... it just happens quite a bit around here and found the comment odd.

 

[VHunter]

I've left Doug a message, inviting him to straigten us out without a doubt (oh look, I made a rhyme ok, I'm punchy, only had 4hrs sleep)

No offense to ANYONE, but I really want Doug's final answer here because there still seems some doubt on some questions.
He'll leave us without any doubts.

 

[Doug Schoon]

If the monomer appears "contaminated", it is by the polymer powder. The polymer powder contains the "initiator" (benzoyl peroxide) which starts the chemical reaction. Once this is put into the monomer, the chemical reactions begin. If there is enough benzoyl peroxide, the enhancement will properly cure. If there is too little, the enhancement will not properly cure and will lead to problems, e.g. over soft and flexible enhancements that are more likely to cause allergic reactions.

If there is just enough powder to cloud the monomer, there is just enough to prematurely start the chemical reactions in that small container. If used, this can lead to more service breakdown and discoloration. I don't recommend this practice and instead suggest that techs properly discard of excess monomer by mixing with a small about of powder, while taking care to avoid skin exposure to the monomer liquid.

Doug Schoon
Chief Scientific Advisor
Creative Nail Design, Inc.

 

[nails2nails]

Gosh english as last lol

Sooo if thats the case surely the pump would be better than topping up a dappen dish as it has less chance of contamination.
Personally I just use what I need clean the dish..job done period!

x

 

[hannahlouise]

i recently bought nsi nail liquid and it is black....is this rightt??!! help please
thanks xx

 

[Doug Schoon]

The problem with these pumps is that monomer liquid becomes contaminated with Benzoyl Peroxide (the curing agent) from the powder and is then allowed to mix with fresh monomer... which is not right. In a dampen dish, that is ok since the product is discarded. With these pumps, the contaminated liquid either flows back into the fresh monomer, or into a separate chamber and is pulled back up later to be used. In either case, you can contaminated monomer that is not being thrown away.

If you work with a very wet mix ratio, that means less powder is contaminating the monomer and you may get way without noticing any affects, but you'll have other issues related to working with too wet of a mix ratio. Even so, the monomer is still contaminated. If you get any discoloration, lifting etc., you will have to consider the contaminated monomer that sat in the pump all night long may well be the issue. In my opinion, it's better to avoid this problem and not use these pumps. This is true for all monomer and polymer systems.

BTW: If you are using the correct mix ratio, much more powder will be contaminating the monomer, so the potential effects on the artificial nail could be much more noticeable.

As far as the tip adhesives go, they are sensitive to moisture. That's why they tend to harden on the tip.