The dreaded VAT threshold!

[Passionate about skin]

Hi Vic
Please can you let me have the details of Victoria the lady who trained you in needling and Peels . I am already trained in CST with Environ and about to do my Skin Pen training . Which Peels do you use as I am looking to expand my offering . Many thanks x

 

[squidgernetball]

Hi Vic
Please can you let me have the details of Victoria the lady who trained you in needling and Peels . I am already trained in CST with Environ and about to do my Skin Pen training . Which Peels do you use as I am looking to expand my offering . Many thanks x

I'll pm you x

 

[salonfrog]

perhaps re structure your business model, it can be done and its all perfectly legal, also take a look at splitting the business in to two or more parts

Be really careful guys if you go down the road of splitting your business. HMRC have a concept called artificial separation and they will go after anyone who they think has split their business to remain below the threshold.

If you're going to go this route, then get professional advice. It could be costly otherwise.

 

[salon doctor]

Be really careful guys if you go down the road of splitting your business. HMRC have a concept called artificial separation and they will go after anyone who they think has split their business to remain below the threshold.

If you're going to go this route, then get professional advice. It could be costly otherwise.

what i did was ask hmrc to show me where ( in the law ) it states that a business cannot be re constructed,

they were unable to do so !!! ( the hmrc or customs and excise are not the law ) and should ( always ) be questioned !!!

they said " you are avoiding paying vat " i said " no i am stopping a business from becoming insolvent " and " helping to keep my front of house
staff in a job, cos its either pay you ( for nout ) or pay her for very valuable service at the front desk "

what we all need to understand is that we cannot be ( forced ) to charge our clients vat and become a tax collection facility
for the corrupt government

when we register we must register whilst not under duress ( threat )

NO ONE .....is allowed to gain your signature on any document under duress or that document is void !!

( ppi anyone ££££££ )

we need to see it in a different light

if you want to really take this to a new level you have to find the legal definition of " value added tax "

and the concept of " trading ", are you / we actually trading ?

take a look and then get a coffee and a ***....

( this is not legal advice )

cheers x

 

[BannerPenguin]

what i did was ask hmrc to show me where ( in the law ) it states that a business cannot be re constructed,

they were unable to do so !!! ( the hmrc or customs and excise are not the law ) and should ( always ) be questioned !!!

they said " you are avoiding paying vat " i said " no i am stopping a business from becoming insolvent " and " helping to keep my front of house
staff in a job, cos its either pay you ( for nout ) or pay her for very valuable service at the front desk "

what we all need to understand is that we cannot be ( forced ) to charge our clients vat and become a tax collection facility
for the corrupt government

when we register we must register whilst not under duress ( threat )

NO ONE .....is allowed to gain your signature on any document under duress or that document is void !!

( ppi anyone ££££££ )

we need to see it in a different light

if you want to really take this to a new level you have to find the legal definition of " value added tax "

and the concept of " trading ", are you / we actually trading ?

take a look and then get a coffee and a ***....

( this is not legal advice )

cheers x

This is all well and good I agree with the principle that things should be questioned.

IE your council tax isn't legally enforceable. No one signs up for it, it's forced upon you and they decide the amount. I'm sure no one remembers signing anything to agree with the council (a private company) a list of their services for money.

The issue is if they take you to court you are stuffed. There is no arguing with it and a solicitor will tell you to settle. Customs & Excise actually have more powers than the police. They don't need warrants to search anyone or any premises so like I say... it depends on how deep your pockets are to argue it in court.

 

[Carlalouise]

Caci has been fab.

I've done so much needling training now. Best by far was Victoria Ammoscato. She is training again in September at my salon. I did peels and needling with her over 2 days. Really reasonably priced and fabulous products. PM me if you want more info.

Vic x

Yes please, so glad everything is going well for you. xx

 

[salon doctor]

This is all well and good I agree with the principle that things should be questioned.

IE your council tax isn't legally enforceable. No one signs up for it, it's forced upon you and they decide the amount. I'm sure no one remembers signing anything to agree with the council (a private company) a list of their services for money.

The issue is if they take you to court you are stuffed. There is no arguing with it and a solicitor will tell you to settle. Customs & Excise actually have more powers than the police. They don't need warrants to search anyone or any premises so like I say... it depends on how deep your pockets are to argue it in court.

good comments thanks

i think as far as i can remember , council tax is ( kind off ) enforceable due to legislation

but vat is different, and it needs your signature on that reg document to become live

there are financial guidelines on vat reg so its up for a challenge but it goes back to the reconstructing part again
like,

This is all well and good I agree with the principle that things should be questioned.

IE your council tax isn't legally enforceable. No one signs up for it, it's forced upon you and they decide the amount. I'm sure no one remembers signing anything to agree with the council (a private company) a list of their services for money.

The issue is if they take you to court you are stuffed. There is no arguing with it and a solicitor will tell you to settle. Customs & Excise actually have more powers than the police. They don't need warrants to search anyone or any premises so like I say... it depends on how deep your pockets are to argue it in court.

sure i replied to this ???

 

[salonfrog]

sure i replied to this ???[/QUOTE]

but vat is different, and it needs your signature on that reg document to become live

HMRC can register a business on its behalf and go back 20 years to collect VAT the business owes it.

The business can duspute this of course but then HMRC can take the business to court. And there are plenty of examples of this. One just last month. The onus is on HMRC to prove the split of course and it will often come down to how the facts are perceived and how the judge is feeling in the day.

Legal fees are expensive, so the business really has to be up for a fight or think the cost is worth it, not to just settle up.

So there is scope (in certain situations) to separate your business, but just be careful and do it with professional advice.

Even then, you might find yourself in court for a few days... :-(

 

[salon doctor]

sure i replied to this ???

HMRC can register a business on its behalf and go back 20 years to collect VAT the business owes it.

The business can duspute this of course but then HMRC can take the business to court. And there are plenty of examples of this. One just last month. The onus is on HMRC to prove the split of course and it will often come down to how the facts are perceived and how the judge is feeling in the day.

Legal fees are expensive, so the business really has to be up for a fight or think the cost is worth it, not to just settle up.

So there is scope (in certain situations) to separate your business, but just be careful and do it with professional advice.

Even then, you might find yourself in court for a few days... :-([/QUOTE]


anyone who finds themselves in that position may wish consider , sinking the ltd company and starting up again : )
before and long before any hmrc disputes.

in fact i know a salon who only recently did that. dont get me wrong , if your not up for a fight dont even think about it as you say ...just pay

there are many salons out there right now, and i mean thousands, who really should consider, a wipeout and re start.

but for any new start up they had darn well better understand what they are getting in to before they start providing services !!!

at the end of the day, if vat was a fair level ie, 12%, or less and was made compulsory it would be a whole new ball game.

i can barely believe some accountants who say " yeh just put your prices up to cover your potential vat loss "

as i feel many of them live in a fantasy world, specially nowadays when a potential client can line up all the salons in the town via these discount sites
like ducks in a row, that allows the clients to see clearly all the price differentials......unreal.

to go back to what you said about them going back 20 years i also know that this has happened,
imagine the horror when they say ok where is our 95K !!!!

hey presto....bankruptcy !!!

there are ways to deal with all this legally and ethically , i am thinking that there should be some advice offered to salons regarding this because the amount of salons who say they turn over 68k and have costs of 59k but have a boat and a range rover in their driveways is pretty spooky !!!

cheers
( none of this is legal advice )

 

[user 111574]

Quote post #29

"....... i am thinking that there should be some advice offered to salons regarding this because the amount of salons who say they turn over 68k and have costs of 59k but have a boat and a range rover in their driveways is pretty spooky !!!"

Sorry, but that's a very naive and unfair comment to make. How do you know how that family's income is generated???
Having a salon is just one business a family could have! They could have income from all sorts of other employment, enterprises and investments!
How do you know they have not purchased it all on the 'never..never' anyway!

 

[Carlalouise]

I know many salons, hairdressers, sandwich shops, restaurants etc that have found loop holes and get away with not paying. My accountant has said many a time, VAT is not fair on small business's especially ones who do not have a lot of retail and because it's not fair it pushes people into hiding money (not using card machines) or splitting a business up or doing other underhand things. For some it's the only option, if they didn't they would go bust so what have they got to lose, however they've got a bigger pair than me and I like to sleep at night.

So onwards and upwards, I'll just have to make a good business great!!!

 

[salon doctor]

Quote post #29

"....... i am thinking that there should be some advice offered to salons regarding this because the amount of salons who say they turn over 68k and have costs of 59k but have a boat and a range rover in their driveways is pretty spooky !!!"

Sorry, but that's a very naive and unfair comment to make. How do you know how that family's income is generated???
Having a salon is just one business a family could have! They could have income from all sorts of other employment, enterprises and investments!
How do you know they have not purchased it all on the 'never..never' anyway!

naive ? , i have been working with salons in the UK for 20 years.

I was not talking about just anyone, i was referring to specific people that their income is ( only ) coming from their salon !

and in my mind i had a lot of specifics

what i said was some salon owners who do have turnovers of 68k who put down costs of operating the salon at about 59k

maybe i should have been more specific, as in talking about individuals i personally know !

not just random families in the street where your comment would be applied

of course i nor anyone could work out a whole families income is generated :0

cheers