Arguing with my sister over botox

[essentia]

Its against the law! We are talking about prescription medicines. No medical practitioner in their right mind would allow non medical professionals to administer injectable prescription medication! There is no way I would be pepared to risk my registration. I would be accountable. Its about managing the risks. Beauty therapists simply do not have the 'right qualifications'. What would you do in the event of complications - how would you manage those risks? You couldn't. In no way is that meant to be detrimental - you are just not qualified! Trust me. The only 'right' training would be to go out and get a medical degree. That is why the law, is the law! X

If it against the law why are companys like Collagenics training therapists to do fillers etc. It has been on a TV documentary so obviously cannot be illegal????

By the way I am talking about giving BT the 'right' qualifications. As far as I am aware general nurse training does not qualify people to use lasers, give Botox and perform any aesthetic treatments. These presumably are 'learnt' post graduation. Why is it so unthinkable that BT can learn skills post graduation to also carry out these treatments? BT have infinitely more experience with the skin during training than a nurse does and if extra life saving skills are needed so be it.

I hope that one day there is a degree in Aesthetics where year 1 will be the equiv to NVQ2 - year 2 equiv to NVQ3 and a final year where advanced skills such as these can be acquired so ending the grey areas.

I hope to do Microsclerotherapy in the future by attending a course run by a really well qualified surgeon - and yes they do train therapists like me - I checked with the British Association of Sclerotherapists and it is not illegal for me to administer the sclerosing agent. I am not sure if therapists are trained correctly and professional why there is a problem......

ps. I know a therapist who trains nurses and doctors in facial fillers etc and has been experienced for 20 years - if it is illegal how on earth does she get insurance?:hug:

 

[samlamb]

You cannot compare a Beauty therapist to a nurse! Please!

 

[samlamb]

And there is a type of Degree for asthetics. It is a Beauty Therapies Management Foundation Degree which includes Laser treatments and advanced microdermabrasion , but quite rightly as beauty therapists are not medicly trained, fillers.

 

[essentia]

You cannot compare a Beauty therapist to a nurse! Please!

Of course they are very different! - I am highlighting the amount of aesthetic training that they undergo whilst doing their training.....very little. Regarding degrees - I meant a full degree with appropriate registration as I feel it is beoming an area that needs the regulation.

 

[daisyl]

If it against the law why are companys like Collagenics training therapists to do fillers etc. It has been on a TV documentary so obviously cannot be illegal????

By the way I am talking about giving BT the 'right' qualifications. As far as I am aware general nurse training does not qualify people to use lasers, give Botox and perform any aesthetic treatments. These presumably are 'learnt' post graduation. Why is it so unthinkable that BT can learn skills post graduation to also carry out these treatments? BT have infinitely more experience with the skin during training than a nurse does and if extra life saving skills are needed so be it.

I hope that one day there is a degree in Aesthetics where year 1 will be the equiv to NVQ2 - year 2 equiv to NVQ3 and a final year where advanced skills such as these can be acquired so ending the grey areas.

I hope to do Microsclerotherapy in the future by attending a course run by a really well qualified surgeon - and yes they do train therapists like me - I checked with the British Association of Sclerotherapists and it is not illegal for me to administer the sclerosing agent. I am not sure if therapists are trained correctly and professional why there is a problem......

ps. I know a therapist who trains nurses and doctors in facial fillers etc and has been experienced for 20 years - if it is illegal how on earth does she get insurance?:hug:

Essentia, you are getting the wrong end of the stick - IN REGARD TO BOTULINUM TOXIN (BOTOX) - IT IS ILLEGAL! - being a POM! There really is no argument. In regards to dermal fillers - this is a massively unregulated area, which hopefully will become stricter - steps are under way to make dermal fillers PRESCRIPTION ONLY - as in America (and rightly so)! We, in this industry, are aware of a Nurse who is training beauty therapists to inject dermal fillers - under investigation! Anyone with any credibility in this industry is appauled, trust me. This practice will stop. Not to mention insurance - simply will not be covered, despite your comments. In a court of law the therapist wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

You are correct - general nurses do not train to do laser treatments and medical aesthetic procedures, this is post grad. However, courses take into consideration our previous medical training and experience - WE ARE ALREADY MEDICALLY QUALIFIED. I totally disagree in your comments re bt undertaking more in depth 'skin' training. Simply not true - particularly nurses specialising in dermatology. We provide MEDICAL grade treatments - these should not be under-estimated, and as such apply medical skills and knowledge. Which is why I regularly prescribe prescription topicals, peels etc etc.

Problems arise out of complications - some very serious - and therefore require medical intervention which you are simply not equipped to provide. I am sorry you may not agree or like it - I reiterate it is not about one being 'better' than the other - but the qualifications do matter - particularly when dealing with the public, they have a right to be protected. It is not personal in any way. You stick to your profession, one of which I am sure you are highly skilled and respected, however, please be very very careful when blurring the lines between beauty therapies and MEDICAL treatments (huge differences) X

 

[botoxwales]

Everthing daisyl has said so far is absolutely spot on. Nurse are medically qualified, beauty therapists are not. DO NOT EVER CONSIDER BOTOX OR FILLER TREATMENT FROM A NON-MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL.

You'll have no comeback if it goes belly up...

 

[samlamb]

Of course they are very different! - I am highlighting the amount of aesthetic training that they undergo whilst doing their training.....very little. Regarding degrees - I meant a full degree with appropriate registration as I feel it is beoming an area that needs the regulation.

But it is not about aesthetics,it is about being MEDICALLY trained! Please, we as beauty therapists need to be realistic and not compare ourselves to Nurses in any way shape or form! NVQ 3 in beauty therapy Vs years and years of medical training? BTW Could a Nurse fill us in on exactly the training they have had please?

 

[essentia]

One thing is for sure - what I point out is that the current system is not acceptable and I feel that all are posts directed to me are missing - I want regulation. I do not see why therapists on a proper training course and I mean regulated cannot administer these fillers under a Doctors guidance. There are already 3 year courses giving paramedical qualifications in other professions and I would like the same for BT if they wish to do this rather than go the general nurse route, which does not allow aestheics training.

I do know of a trainer that teaches doctors/nurses in administering fillers (maybe not Botox as it is POM as you mention - I would have to check -By the way I do not think I mentioned Botox but fillers in my posts - but fillers are classed as medical devices I believe and they do fall into a grey area) who is a therapist and who has take up this argument with Habia and the Health Advisory Committee.

To me this debate is even more wide as I find it alarming that any GP/nurse can train to administer fillers and have no background aesthetic training. There have been many Doctors practise laser with no real training either. A relative of mine was scarred by a Dermatologist using laser on her, what about the surgeon who ruined that man's face on the Leslie Ash programme by injecting him wrongly. I also had a mole removed by a Dermatologist and later a Plastic Surgeon said it was an awful job!

Do not get me wrong I do not think therapists should administer treatments without proper training but I think automatic acceptance because one is a nurse or Doctor is not good enough either. Aesthetics and medical skill are equally important. Does it only matter that someone can help in a case of anaphylaxis but the result is crap.....
We all have an ability to learn and be taught correct procedures .:hug:

 

[daisyl]

Hi Sam,

In answer to your question. Medical nursing degree for starters (before any medical aesthetic training), continuing on working alongside well reputed and respected cosmetic dermatologists and doctors, ongoing professional development in the form of advanced training with various providers across the UK and europe. Attending many lectures, FACE conference, BACD lectures, working on cadavers in Nice (don't ask)! but very informative! dermatology degree, NIP (Independant prescriber) - able to prescribe in medical capacity (same as Dr), regional trainer for advanced injectable dermal fillers, also work in conjunction with local GP's and cosmetic dermatologist (referals to me from GP's and I may refer patients to cosmetic dermatologist if further intervention is required), and oe 20 yrs experience.

Therefore, I consider myself quite well qualified - even so, it is still an ongoing process and there is still much to learn. These are MEDICAL aesthetic procedures and must be treated as such. A medical qualification is the very least patients should expect!

I respect BT's - but definitely not in this area. Thanks for your comments. Botoxwales - we are on the same planet! X

 

[daisyl]

One thing is for sure - what I point out is that the current system is not acceptable and I feel that all are posts directed to me are missing - I want regulation. I do not see why therapists on a proper training course and I mean regulated cannot administer these fillers under a Doctors guidance. There are already 3 year courses giving paramedical qualifications in other professions and I would like the same for BT if they wish to do this rather than go the general nurse route, which does not allow aestheics training.

I do know of a trainer that teaches doctors/nurses in administering fillers (maybe not Botox as it is POM as you mention - I would have to check -By the way I do not think I mentioned Botox but fillers in my posts - but fillers are classed as medical devices I believe and they do fall into a grey area) who is a therapist and who has take up this argument with Habia and the Health Advisory Committee.

To me this debate is even more wide as I find it alarming that any GP/nurse can train to administer fillers and have no background aesthetic training. There have been many Doctors practise laser with no real training either. A relative of mine was scarred by a Dermatologist using laser on her, what about the surgeon who ruined that man's face on the Leslie Ash programme by injecting him wrongly. I also had a mole removed by a Dermatologist and later a Plastic Surgeon said it was an awful job!

Do not get me wrong I do not think therapists should administer treatments without proper training but I think automatic acceptance because one is a nurse or Doctor is not good enough either. Aesthetics and medical skill are equally important. Does it only matter that someone can help in a case of anaphylaxis but the result is crap.....
We all have an ability to learn and be taught correct procedures .:hug:

Essentia, the real issue here is managing complications. You should not be undertaking medical aesthetic procedures if you do not have the qualifications to manage any complications which can and do happen, and in rare cases can become quite serious - which by nature of your post crossly underestimates. I do not wish to offend in any way here! Medical intervention is required in these instances X

 

[chazz!!]

Hello i have to say tho it mite not be many pleoples intention i am quite offended i am a beauty therapist and i am trainned to carry out botox and fillers. i think wot must be looked at is the trainning one gets. my course was nearly 6 months all togeather and although we went through a lot of the things a nurse would do i am still a beauty therapist just a highy trained one. also alot of wot we do on a beauty therapist course is the same a wot a nurse would do (on a propper course not one of those 2 day things). i have to say none of my clients have a problem with me not being a trainned nurse and come back to me time and time again due to my indepth knowlage about the treatment that i got from the course and keeping up to date by reading books and using the internet. at the end of the day a nurse would still have to do a course to learn how to do botox and thats all i did with just a little extra bit covering cirtain things that a nurse would have learnt during there basic trainning. so therfore i say i am just a well trainned on the treatment of botox being a beauty therapist ans a nurse.

 

[essentia]

Essentia, the real issue here is managing complications. You should not be undertaking medical aesthetic procedures if you do not have the qualifications to manage any complications which can and do happen, and in rare cases can become quite serious - which by nature of your post crossly underestimates. I do not wish to offend in any way here! Medical intervention is required in these instances X

Again I will say that is what a more indepth and regulated course would hopefully cover.

 

[daisyl]

Hello i have to say tho it mite not be many pleoples intention i am quite offended i am a beauty therapist and i am trainned to carry out botox and fillers. i think wot must be looked at is the trainning one gets. my course was nearly 6 months all togeather and although we went through a lot of the things a nurse would do i am still a beauty therapist just a highy trained one. also alot of wot we do on a beauty therapist course is the same a wot a nurse would do (on a propper course not one of those 2 day things). i have to say none of my clients have a problem with me not being a trainned nurse and come back to me time and time again due to my indepth knowlage about the treatment that i got from the course and keeping up to date by reading books and using the internet. at the end of the day a nurse would still have to do a course to learn how to do botox and thats all i did with just a little extra bit covering cirtain things that a nurse would have learnt during there basic trainning. so therfore i say i am just a well trainned on the treatment of botox being a beauty therapist ans a nurse.

Well then your practice is illegal! Plain and simple and you are putting the public at risk. If there is any doubt to the legalities contact the MHRA. I find your post and practice appauling.

 

[daisyl]

Again I will say that is what a more indepth and regulated course would hopefully cover.

Except you would not be regulated would you! The public would have no protection. There is no accountability, in so far as you have no LEGAL professional register entitling you to practice as in the case of medical professionals, leaving patients very vulnerable. There are plenty of 'regulated' courses out there - doesn't make them foolproof. Medical aesthetics (emphasis on medical) at least offers protection, in that a medically qualified professional is treating you!

When you refer to an 'in depth, regulated course' - you are in fact defining a medical qualification (of a least 3 years), with a recordable, registered (with a legal governing body) qualification at the end of it - nothing less is adequate. Your question has been answered over and over again.

 

[essentia]

Except you would not be regulated would you! The public would have no protection. There is no accountability, in so far as you have no LEGAL professional register entitling you to practice as in the case of medical professionals, leaving patients very vulnerable. There are plenty of 'regulated' courses out there - doesn't make them foolproof. Medical aesthetics (emphasis on medical) at least offers protection, in that a medically qualified professional is treating you!

When you refer to an 'in depth, regulated course' - you are in fact defining a medical qualification (of a least 3 years), with a recordable, registered (with a legal governing body) qualification at the end of it - nothing less is adequate. Your question has been answered over and over again.

Please re read all my posts which express my belief that beauty therapy should be regulated - I am not asking a question - I am stating what I believe should now be put in place as there are many grey areas in the beauty profession. My point that you have issue with is that I do not see why with the appropriate training therapists should not deliver treatments like fillers under the guidance of a Doctor. Aesthetics and beauty are colliding and all I suggest in my posts that these thoughts should be taken into consideration. I have never once stated a therapist should not have the appropriate training even if it incudes more advanced medical knowledge but I also think that training is inadequate for some medically qualified personnel who have left some clients with undesirable results.

 

[samlamb]

Hello i have to say tho it mite not be many pleoples intention i am quite offended i am a beauty therapist and i am trainned to carry out botox and fillers. i think wot must be looked at is the trainning one gets. my course was nearly 6 months all togeather and although we went through a lot of the things a nurse would do i am still a beauty therapist just a highy trained one. also alot of wot we do on a beauty therapist course is the same a wot a nurse would do (on a propper course not one of those 2 day things). i have to say none of my clients have a problem with me not being a trainned nurse and come back to me time and time again due to my indepth knowlage about the treatment that i got from the course and keeping up to date by reading books and using the internet. at the end of the day a nurse would still have to do a course to learn how to do botox and thats all i did with just a little extra bit covering cirtain things that a nurse would have learnt during there basic trainning. so therfore i say i am just a well trainned on the treatment of botox being a beauty therapist ans a nurse.

 

[lelaah]

Wow just trying to search forums to find botox local to me, and had to reply to this.

Botox being presciption only, should only be given by a dr or nurse prescriber, I appreciate BT do alot of training, I did start my NVQ in beauty when I was 18, admittly I didnt finish it, but I did alot of the course, I then later in life at 22 went to uni and did a degree in nursing....

so speaking from actual experience of both types of training, Nurses knowledge of skin, A&P and all the other bits mentioned in previous posts far out weighs the knowledge of any BT. plus its about .... if a compication did happen, during the treatment, would a BT have the medical knowledge to deal with it?

The intensity of the nurse training and all the things the nurses have to learn in every aspect of health care is soooo intense, it was not what i was epecting, despite working as a health care worker for numerous years before, and over the years of working as a nurse, its quite easy for a nurse to be as knowledgeable as any dr in my opinion, nurses spend far more time with patients, and are constantly learning.

sorry my 2 pennies worth, now back to finding some one to give me some botox... any one in dorset area?

 

[Velveteen]

its quite easy for a nurse to be as knowledgeable as any dr

Of course it is, like anyone with continued training. However, it's a different kind of knowledge and most nurses I know would be insulted if you lined them up against a doctor.

Unlike the UK, the administration of medical treatments is strictly regulated in Australia. Over here, it is illegal for a Beauty Therapist to administer Botox and dermal fillers (the two most popular cosmetic treatments) and it is also illegal for a registered Nurse to administer them too unless directly supervised by a doctor. A Nurse cannot prescribe or be found to be holding these substances either and risk losing their registration if they do so.

I don't believe beauty therapists or nurses should be permitted to provide medical treatments of this nature. I feel it is an entirely different field which requires a much higher standard of training than what is presently provided. As a BT myself, I am quite happy to pass on the responsibility to medical practitioners who have the in depth expertise and $20 million malpractice insurances required by procedures such as this.

People who complain that BTs should be allowed to provide these treatments are simply unaware of the complexities involved. Would they inject a person presenting with amyotrophic lateral sclerosis, I wonder? Probably.

I found an article today that refers to the amazing practices prevalent in the UK today and you can read that here. I'm not sure which aspect horrifies me the most - the fact that anyone can do it, the age of the recipients, that dear ol' Mum is injecting her daughters or the fact that no one has died.

Yet.

 

[angelina221]

I have a doctor who comes into my salon to do botox, fillers etc.....
I had used a couple of cosmetic companies before but wasn't happy with them. I contacted this doctor after he was highly recommended. He is also an anaesthetist.
When he first came to my salon to introduce himself, we were just chatting and what he told me quite shocked me.
He mentioned something about one day training courses for botox etc...
I said to him 'but you need to be a qualified doctor or nurse to administer botox don't you'?
'Oh yes' he said, 'but people like your GP's who are usually in their practice all day, are not used to giving injections as their job does not require it'.
So doctors go on one day courses to learn how to administer botox etc.......
I never knew this!
So even though doctors are very well qualified, they are only doing one day courses to do this.
Luckily as this doctor is also an anaethetist, he is used to giving injections day in and day out.
So contrary to what people believe, doctors do one day course too........now how's about that!

 

[Rockateer]

Luckily as this doctor is also an anaethetist, he is used to giving injections day in and day out.
So contrary to what people believe, doctors do one day course too........now how's about that!


Even if they do only do one daycourses, im sure the reason is as they have had countless years of medical training it is just advancing his services/knowledge, if he is an anaesthestist then he surely only has to adapt his knowledge to this specific drug..... surely you dont expect doctors to go on weeks of training for each and every new drug they learn to administer,thus the reason why their original training is so diverse and extensive so they only have to tweek their knowledge /skills in years to come......

In my opinion each career has similar traits, not comparing the two career paths but am giving this examplpe....a beauty therapists does her/his training/apprenticeship so with new trends they have to go on one day course to adapt to new techniques , etc

I hope this makes sense
This is just my opinion.......i wonder if there could be a course three years long etc which is not a BT , nor a nurse but a course to offer the aesthetically pleasing servises..these seem to be the future of our career's yet a different career in itself
Surely there is a room for all !!! ith correct courses, legislation etc