SusanEvian
Well-Known Member
This can happen, did this happen a few days after, when? there are various reasons for this.
Su x
Arguing with my sister over botox
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This can happen, did this happen a few days after, when? there are various reasons for this.
Su x
as for "my wrongful judgement for taking blood" Su , I am speaking from my experience only as A. A patient, B. A mother C. A technician who work's alongside doctor's and nurses in a lot of capacity's.......and in all of the aforementioned situation's I personally and professionally have come across it is indeed a Nurse that perform's bl0od taking.
Perhap's the regulation's differ in Ireland to the Uk, as I am living in Dublin. I must admit I know nothing of the regulation's etc and how they may differ....
Can i just say that I find you overbearing at time's with regard's to your opinion, Yes i understand you are indeed qualified more so than I ever would be but I too am entitled to state my observation's and experience's without being told I have "wrongful judgement" as if you personally know ALL regarding my situation or that of other's.
Also I find it ironic that you have "join the unbiased club" as part of your signature when you are anything but UNbiased, you seem to have a higher opinion of your careeer and your opinion's......
Correct me if I am wrong, but I have watched many of your thread's and I rarely become frustrated by somebody but I feel I have to say it. No personal offence meant, the same way I am sure when you have corrected me on several other thread's no personal offence was intended on your part.
rockaterr "xxxx"
Perhap's the regulation's differ in Ireland to the Uk, as I am living in Dublin. I must admit I know nothing of the regulation's etc and how they may differ....
Can i just say that I find you overbearing at time's with regard's to your opinion, Yes i understand you are indeed qualified more so than I ever would be but I too am entitled to state my observation's and experience's without being told I have "wrongful judgement" as if you personally know ALL regarding my situation or that of other's.
Also I find it ironic that you have "join the unbiased club" as part of your signature when you are anything but UNbiased, you seem to have a higher opinion of your careeer and your opinion's......
Correct me if I am wrong, but I have watched many of your thread's and I rarely become frustrated by somebody but I feel I have to say it. No personal offence meant, the same way I am sure when you have corrected me on several other thread's no personal offence was intended on your part.
rockaterr "xxxx"
nails for u
Well-Known Member
before i start im not a medical practitioner so dont require shooting down if im wrong but isnt it a job a phlebotomist does take blood and does a phebotomist have nurses training can only nurses train to do phlebotomy taking blood is quite a responsability interesting points being made also are there any canadian geeks that know about botox in canada is it regulated there again not sure if things ive read or heard are factual
SusanEvian
Well-Known Member
essentia
Well-Known Member
In the UK a Phlebotomist usually takes blood. They have usually have one days training and the job is usually open to anyone for application.
I do feel for us in the industry and am a big fan of having registered BT. This would allow a structured training programme with proper support. I am covered by my insurance to use topical anaesthetic for red vein removal as that is the way I have been taught on a recognised qual here in the UK but there would be others who probably disagree with this. There are lots of inconsistencies. For eg if I take the foot health qualification I can then take a local anaesthetic course but I will not be a nurse!
Some BT are better placed than some nurses as we do a lot of facials, electrolysis, red vein removal etc and training in dermatology etc would be useful. I am not really a fan of BT doing Botox but I would not have a problem with TCA peels, sclerotherapy and perhaps hyalauronic injections provided proper H&S is included. We really need a proper shake up so not only are we supported but those who are less than professional and scrupulous are protected from the public. Just because we are BT does not mean we do not have the intelligence or professional integrity to carry out safe more advanced treatments.:Love:
I do feel for us in the industry and am a big fan of having registered BT. This would allow a structured training programme with proper support. I am covered by my insurance to use topical anaesthetic for red vein removal as that is the way I have been taught on a recognised qual here in the UK but there would be others who probably disagree with this. There are lots of inconsistencies. For eg if I take the foot health qualification I can then take a local anaesthetic course but I will not be a nurse!
Some BT are better placed than some nurses as we do a lot of facials, electrolysis, red vein removal etc and training in dermatology etc would be useful. I am not really a fan of BT doing Botox but I would not have a problem with TCA peels, sclerotherapy and perhaps hyalauronic injections provided proper H&S is included. We really need a proper shake up so not only are we supported but those who are less than professional and scrupulous are protected from the public. Just because we are BT does not mean we do not have the intelligence or professional integrity to carry out safe more advanced treatments.:Love:
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nails for u
Well-Known Member
i completely agree essentia i myself do the full range of treatments and use topical when doing treatments i have done numerous courses and worked for numerous companys as a trainer as well as in colleges doing day workshops a proper register of practitioners etc would be a step in the right direction
Velveteen
Well-Known Member
Oh yeah, let's inject hyaluronic acid and apply tricholocetic acid at a 45% concentration and all it takes is for something to go drastically wrong and the tune quickly changes.
Susan, I do understand how UK hospitals work actually. And let's not change the issue by changing your declaration. You said that when you go to have your blood taken its rarely a nurse not that you don't have to be a nurse. Just because I am presently a resident in Australia doesn't mean I've not ventured outside my front door Who takes blood and what they do with it does indeed depend on the setting and things must have drastically changed in the UK and for the worse if the phlebotomist's training consists of one day. So yeah, I thought Rocky was spot on with her comment.
Yes, part of the work required of a phlebotomist is to take blood. Yes, their training is similar to that of nursing training but (obviously) nowhere near as vast. In Australia, this is changing though. Most places do ask that you have nursing training in your background and you certainly don't come off the street and do it. Unlike nurses, in both the UK and Australia, phlebs aren't required to be registered. However, unlike the UK, in Australia some Health Assistants are now required to be registered so the landscape is changing in that regard.
Er...use topical what? Botox isn't a topical treatment.
Which leads me to another point. BTs are allowed to use topical anaesthetic where pertinent (not all ta's have an S4 classification). I don't really have a need for them as they are contraindicated in the treatments I perform (eg. waxing) but could utilise them if I was tattooing someone's face, for example. But, again, that ain't beauty therapy And neither is the use of injectable anaethesia, the adverse reactions and complications associated with which are far more serious than Botox.
I'm not a fan of registration at all. Not in its present format. One quick glance at how the US has gone leaves me eternally grateful that we have not gone down that road. But that's a different issue to this thread and I'm not about to hijack it.
If you read this thread you'd see that it's not about intelligence at all. And I'm flummoxed as to why people insist that it is. (Mind you, I've read some responses on other threads and pray that the person is never let anywhere near a needle never mind be allowed to use one). It's about appropriation of training and its relevance to beauty therapy. I'm not insecure at all about being a Beauty Therapist. I have my job as does a Nurse and a Doctor. Any inferiority assumed is in the breath of the person making that judgement. Because that's where the insecurity usually lies.
In my country, it is illegal for a Beauty Therapist to administer Botox/fillers or mess with TCA peels..and anything else that belongs in the medical realm. A registered nurse can do so under a doctor's supervision.
And that's the way I like it
Susan, I do understand how UK hospitals work actually. And let's not change the issue by changing your declaration. You said that when you go to have your blood taken its rarely a nurse not that you don't have to be a nurse. Just because I am presently a resident in Australia doesn't mean I've not ventured outside my front door
Who takes blood and what they do with it does indeed depend on the setting and things must have drastically changed in the UK and for the worse if the phlebotomist's training consists of one day. So yeah, I thought Rocky was spot on with her comment.Yes, part of the work required of a phlebotomist is to take blood. Yes, their training is similar to that of nursing training but (obviously) nowhere near as vast. In Australia, this is changing though. Most places do ask that you have nursing training in your background and you certainly don't come off the street and do it. Unlike nurses, in both the UK and Australia, phlebs aren't required to be registered. However, unlike the UK, in Australia some Health Assistants are now required to be registered so the landscape is changing in that regard.
Er...use topical what? Botox isn't a topical treatment.
Which leads me to another point. BTs are allowed to use topical anaesthetic where pertinent (not all ta's have an S4 classification). I don't really have a need for them as they are contraindicated in the treatments I perform (eg. waxing) but could utilise them if I was tattooing someone's face, for example. But, again, that ain't beauty therapy
And neither is the use of injectable anaethesia, the adverse reactions and complications associated with which are far more serious than Botox.I'm not a fan of registration at all. Not in its present format. One quick glance at how the US has gone leaves me eternally grateful that we have not gone down that road. But that's a different issue to this thread and I'm not about to hijack it.
If you read this thread you'd see that it's not about intelligence at all. And I'm flummoxed as to why people insist that it is. (Mind you, I've read some responses on other threads and pray that the person is never let anywhere near a needle never mind be allowed to use one). It's about appropriation of training and its relevance to beauty therapy. I'm not insecure at all about being a Beauty Therapist. I have my job as does a Nurse and a Doctor. Any inferiority assumed is in the breath of the person making that judgement. Because that's where the insecurity usually lies.
In my country, it is illegal for a Beauty Therapist to administer Botox/fillers or mess with TCA peels..and anything else that belongs in the medical realm. A registered nurse can do so under a doctor's supervision.
And that's the way I like it
essentia
Well-Known Member
I feel Velveteen that you are getting this out of context. I did not say we should be applying 45% TCA. TCA at 7.5%, 10%, I cannot see as a problem in the right hands. My skincare company supplies TCA (not allowed in UK of course) for therapists in other countries. I also said that proper H&S should be also incorporated into the training, I do not expect anyone to do it otherwise. I do not understand why some are so frightened of therapists having thorough and proper training if they fulfill a criteria, that is how anyone is selected for a course.
I am also secure in being a BT but I do not see why 'for some advanced treatments' we need to have undergone a 3yr nursing course. Bed bathing and other nursing duties are not necessary to apply a mild TCA peel to a clients skin. (By the way I am not undermining their duties in any shape or form). We do treat clients skin on a daily basis hence the frustration some therapists may feel when wanting to go a step further... It was not long ago that some nurses did not prescribe but everything changes and so should beauty therapy (before that is misinterpreted I do not think BT should prescibe but further their skillset).
I also said I am not a fan of BT administering Botox - did you read that bit? I think that should be reserved for the medical profession. As for registration not only would it set guidelines for what is acceptable to offer, provide support but also protect the public from untrained therapists.
I am also secure in being a BT but I do not see why 'for some advanced treatments' we need to have undergone a 3yr nursing course. Bed bathing and other nursing duties are not necessary to apply a mild TCA peel to a clients skin. (By the way I am not undermining their duties in any shape or form). We do treat clients skin on a daily basis hence the frustration some therapists may feel when wanting to go a step further... It was not long ago that some nurses did not prescribe but everything changes and so should beauty therapy (before that is misinterpreted I do not think BT should prescibe but further their skillset).
I also said I am not a fan of BT administering Botox - did you read that bit? I think that should be reserved for the medical profession. As for registration not only would it set guidelines for what is acceptable to offer, provide support but also protect the public from untrained therapists.
Velveteen
Well-Known Member
No, I think people are leading with their emotions rather than the facts. You need to speak to a nurse in order to educate yourself on what actually constitutes nursing. There are some whopping fallacies in your claims there.
The first paragraph of my post was in no way attributed to you. I was merely responding to the posts as written. If a BT wants to go further in her/his career, then they can go to uni and advance their training accordingly. And I don't have a problem with that.
You never apply TA at 45% concentration. Not even in a clinical setting. With 45% you'd cause irreversible damage and put your client's life at risk. Something you didn't pick up.
I rest my case.
The first paragraph of my post was in no way attributed to you. I was merely responding to the posts as written. If a BT wants to go further in her/his career, then they can go to uni and advance their training accordingly. And I don't have a problem with that.
You never apply TA at 45% concentration. Not even in a clinical setting. With 45% you'd cause irreversible damage and put your client's life at risk. Something you didn't pick up.
I rest my case.
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essentia
Well-Known Member
I would not apply 45% TCA at all - I have just made that quite clear and made it indeed the first point in my post
Some higher strengths are used for specific areas like warts and such like. I apply it to myself and have indeed have had clinic treatments with this product.
Your response is emotional and not factual at all.
In the UK a Phlebotomist usually takes blood. They have usually have one days training and the job is usually open to anyone for application.
I do feel for us in the industry and am a big fan of having registered BT. This would allow a structured training programme with proper support. I am covered by my insurance to use topical anaesthetic for red vein removal as that is the way I have been taught on a recognised qual here in the UK but there would be others who probably disagree with this. There are lots of inconsistencies. For eg if I take the foot health qualification I can then take a local anaesthetic course but I will not be a nurse!
Some BT are better placed than some nurses as we do a lot of facials, electrolysis, red vein removal etc and training in dermatology etc would be useful. I am not really a fan of BT doing Botox but I would not have a problem with TCA peels, sclerotherapy and perhaps hyalauronic injections provided proper H&S is included. We really need a proper shake up so not only are we supported but those who are less than professional and scrupulous are protected from the public. Just because we are BT does not mean we do not have the intelligence or professional integrity to carry out safe more advanced treatments.:Love:
These treatments are only safe if in the correct hands. Medically qualified practitioners - does not make BT's stupid or inferior - just no-where near adequately qualified. Take it from a qualified medical professional with over 20 years experience and the qualification to prescribe (something which takes more than a few courses to learn)! I do know what I am talking about here!
To say you have issues with bt's injecting botox - but then go on to say you would not have an issue with sclerosing agents and hyalauronic acid fillers is really not understanding the dangers of these products. A lot more problems can arise from dermal fillers than botox treatments, and managing those complications can be very complex and at a minimum require specialist medical knowledge. Not to mention the fact that a comprehensive medical history must be assessed prior to these treatments. Sclerosing agents can be extremely toxic. You simply must have more respect for these treatments and the general public. As a point of fact - most members of the public would not be happy to let a bt's undertake these treatments (and rightly so). This is in no way meant to be detrimental - but again I will say - you are grossly underestimating the nature of these treatments - although as you are not an experienced medical professional I can perhaps understand why you cannot see this.
I guess this argument can run on and on - I know some of you geeks out there disagree and feel it is within your capabilities - as a BT it is most certainly not (in the same way I would not be able to fix a car engine - not saying it makes me stupid) - we cannot all be wrong in the medical profession can we - including the GMC, NMC, MHRA, IHAS (all governing bodies opposed to non medical professionals undertaking MEDICAL cosmetic treatments).
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essentia
Well-Known Member
Yes you are right topics like this will run and run. However you keep forgetting that I advocate proper training and H&S when I post my replies.
I know a lady who is a BT and has been trained by a vascular surgeon to do sclerotherapy. Even the British Association of Sclerotherapists acknowledge BT doing this treatment as I have asked them. The Whiteley Clinic run by Mark Whiteley who pioneered treatments also trains BT. If they have the confidence to train us............
The other thing I find a concern is the amount of people who can easily buy peels online because they are so much cheaper than going to a clinic that charges a fortune. I went to a clinic to have 25% TCA and the nurse never even looked at my skin under a lamp - just put it on with the most basic of history taken!
I think the public can quickly tell (whether you are a nurse, Doctor or BT) whether you are competent or not. I have had clients who have seen Dermatologists and have been appalled at lack of professionalism. There are good and bad in all areas.:Love:
I know a lady who is a BT and has been trained by a vascular surgeon to do sclerotherapy. Even the British Association of Sclerotherapists acknowledge BT doing this treatment as I have asked them. The Whiteley Clinic run by Mark Whiteley who pioneered treatments also trains BT. If they have the confidence to train us............
The other thing I find a concern is the amount of people who can easily buy peels online because they are so much cheaper than going to a clinic that charges a fortune. I went to a clinic to have 25% TCA and the nurse never even looked at my skin under a lamp - just put it on with the most basic of history taken!
I think the public can quickly tell (whether you are a nurse, Doctor or BT) whether you are competent or not. I have had clients who have seen Dermatologists and have been appalled at lack of professionalism. There are good and bad in all areas.:Love:
I guess essentia, your definition of proper training and mine differ. I agree - there are indeed good and bad in all areas - but that does not justify a valid reason for non medical professionals performing medical treatments, nor does citing inappropriate practice.
I would also be very cautious when making reference to professionals 'pioneering' treatments - simply is not the case. I also agree - the public are very savvy - and I reiterate the vast majority of the general public would not visit a bt for cosmetic procedures.
It is not just about being competent to perform the procedures - it is about managing complications. I cannot stress this enough. The only 'adequate training' in this instance would be a medical qualification. Anything less would not be acting in the best interests of your patient. Again - you must respect the opinions of medical professionals.
essentia
Well-Known Member
The vascular surgeons in question are medical professionals and feel that it is safe to train BT in sclerotherapy - do you respect that opinion? If you do not believe that Mark Whiteley has not pioneered any of his mentioned treatments then you should document why - with proof- why he has not as it could be deemed a professional slur and very damaging saying such on the internet.
I do believe in proper training if therapists wish to do these treatments (not one day at the local Sally's!!) and feel it should be put in place for them. I hope one day there will be an registered aesthetic course (or top up for qualified BT) so people wishing to do this work will not have to do a 3 year nursing course. This seems to be the only route and is totally unnecessary and yes it should involve proper care and client management but I have always made that point.
persianista
Well-Known Member
I have read through this thread with alarm.
There is a reason why doctors train for 7 years, nurses train for 3 years and beauty therapists for a MAXIMUM of 2 years.
The knowledge of A&p you learn on a therapy level 3 course feels pretty in depth doesnt it? A therapist doesn't scratch the surface of what health professionals have to know.
Beauty therapists do not learn resusc techniques apart from "call an ambulance".
These are peoples faces and bodies we are talking about. Hair and nails re-grow, your face doesnt.
So can I inject a bit of common sense into this argument.
We, in this industry are trained to work on the exterior of the body. Our industry has enough problems with poor, quick training (22 week level 3 course anyone?)
If anyone wants to dabble in medical matters, do a degree. Become a nurse or a doctor.
I am glad that botox has been restricted to doctors and dentists (funny enough the training for a dentist is far more complex and in depth than that of a doctor).
Given that you wish to perform quasi-medical treatments, I would sincerly hope that you had enough intellect to be able to complete a 3 year degree course first.
There is a reason why doctors train for 7 years, nurses train for 3 years and beauty therapists for a MAXIMUM of 2 years.
The knowledge of A&p you learn on a therapy level 3 course feels pretty in depth doesnt it? A therapist doesn't scratch the surface of what health professionals have to know.
Beauty therapists do not learn resusc techniques apart from "call an ambulance".
These are peoples faces and bodies we are talking about. Hair and nails re-grow, your face doesnt.
So can I inject a bit of common sense into this argument.
We, in this industry are trained to work on the exterior of the body. Our industry has enough problems with poor, quick training (22 week level 3 course anyone?)
If anyone wants to dabble in medical matters, do a degree. Become a nurse or a doctor.
I am glad that botox has been restricted to doctors and dentists (funny enough the training for a dentist is far more complex and in depth than that of a doctor).
Given that you wish to perform quasi-medical treatments, I would sincerly hope that you had enough intellect to be able to complete a 3 year degree course first.
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essentia
Well-Known Member
I would like to see a proper degree course but for aethetics - if you have followed my threads you will understand that. A long time ago I followed my sister into nursing but left in the first 6 months (not long I know). I did not find the A&P strenuous but the shifts were! Whether you find the course work easy or not is subjective and not a good enough reason not to allow progression. I do not feel that to perform some advanced techniques a 3 year nursing course is necessary - just my opinion. However proper training is required - rightly so and I do not at all beleive it should be anything less. Some vascular surgeons are happy to train BT in sclerotherapy - I cannot think they would even contemplate it if it were not safe.
I would like to see a proper degree course but for aethetics - if you have followed my threads you will understand that. A long time ago I followed my sister into nursing but left in the first 6 months (not long I know). I did not find the A&P strenuous but the shifts were! Whether you find the course work easy or not is subjective and not a good enough reason not to allow progression. I do not feel that to perform some advanced techniques a 3 year nursing course is necessary - just my opinion. However proper training is required - rightly so and I do not at all beleive it should be anything less. Some vascular surgeons are happy to train BT in sclerotherapy - I cannot think they would even contemplate it if it were not safe.
most vascular surgeons don't contemplate it - fact. Again I repeat - it is not just about performing the procedure, so that point is fruitless. You have totally missed the points (and continue to do so) - which for my part is actually quite scary and validates my argument.
I am done here.
essentia
Well-Known Member
This is my last post - I hope eventually there will be a proper aesthetics course that covers H&S, client care and advanced techniques. As I have mentioned many times before this would include dealing with all situations (even emergency ones). I hope it will be registered and those who work will have Doctor referral/Doctor led clinics. What is scary or misplaced about that? For those that wish to work in advanced treatments the only route is a 3 year nursing course. Some of the content is just not relevant. I do not understand your comments when I uphold the idea of a professional route into this area. I would understand your comments if I did not. It does not validate your argument in any shape or form to suggest that I endorse anything remotely unsafe, so please do not suggest I do.
Velveteen
Well-Known Member
It's not lawful for a beauty therapist to carry out sclerotherapy - I'm talking both countries here. (Case in point - try and get yourself insured for it). Whitely doesn't train them in such a wide practice - he does a two day course for thread veins in the leg only. And he sure as heck doesn't employ them (you'll find them in the "aesthetics wing" of his practice which, quelle horreur, covers traditional and non medical procedures).
Sclerotherapy is an extremely dangerous treatment.
And I'll say this - Whitely is no pioneer. So sue me.
Regardless of the facts that have presented quite clearly here in this thread by various people, I don't give a flying fart how you try to convince the world at large that performing medical procedures is within the beauty therapist's stratosphere. It's been plainly (and somewhat painfully) pointed out over and over again and what keeps coming up is convoluted, diluted information that is not fleshed out in its entirety. Quite frankly, your attitude scares the crap out of me.
As a matter of accuracy, I would like to point out that the training for beauty therapy in Australia is quite different from that in the UK. We are required to carry out advanced first aid procedures as well as complete a 600 hour supervised off site clinical placement. Further training can be gleaned from an associate degree programme in dermal science/paramedical aesthetics for those who work assisting medicos. Additionally, a nursing degree is now four years (you cannot be employed as an RN with a DipN), doctors train for a minimum of 9 as the initial BSurg/BMed is now a graduate degree; that is, you have to have a degree before you apply. And you need to be able to spell.
There is. And has been for quite some time. You can find it in any health faculty of a university. Thing is, you want a course that is quick, relatively cheap and offers no accountability.
My clients are worth far more than that.
Sclerotherapy is an extremely dangerous treatment.
And I'll say this - Whitely is no pioneer. So sue me.
Regardless of the facts that have presented quite clearly here in this thread by various people, I don't give a flying fart how you try to convince the world at large that performing medical procedures is within the beauty therapist's stratosphere. It's been plainly (and somewhat painfully) pointed out over and over again and what keeps coming up is convoluted, diluted information that is not fleshed out in its entirety. Quite frankly, your attitude scares the crap out of me.
As a matter of accuracy, I would like to point out that the training for beauty therapy in Australia is quite different from that in the UK. We are required to carry out advanced first aid procedures as well as complete a 600 hour supervised off site clinical placement. Further training can be gleaned from an associate degree programme in dermal science/paramedical aesthetics for those who work assisting medicos. Additionally, a nursing degree is now four years (you cannot be employed as an RN with a DipN), doctors train for a minimum of 9 as the initial BSurg/BMed is now a graduate degree; that is, you have to have a degree before you apply. And you need to be able to spell.
There is. And has been for quite some time. You can find it in any health faculty of a university. Thing is, you want a course that is quick, relatively cheap and offers no accountability.
My clients are worth far more than that.
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